Talk: Hard Mode/Archive2

[[../Archive 1]] - before hard mode was introduced
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[[../Drop Rate]] | [[../Access]] | [[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]
= Moved discussions =
== Death ==
{{moved-to|[[/Access]]}}

== Cantha Hard Mode ==
{{moved-to|[[../Access]]}}

== Grouping ==
{{moved-to|[[../Access]]}}

== Hard Mode and Quests ==
{{moved-to|[[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]}}

== Skill Capping in Hard Mode ==
{{moved-to|[[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]}}

== Attack, Movement and Skill Use speeds ==
{{moved-to|[[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]}}

== Hench ==
{{moved-to|[[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]}}

== Boss Skills ==
{{moved-to|[[../Monster & NPC Skills, AI, and items]]}}

== Drop Rate For Normal Mode ==
{{moved-to|[[Talk:Game updates/20070419/Drop Rate]]}}

== What? ==
{{moved-to|[[Talk:Game updates/20070419/Drop Rate]]}}

== Vanquisher Title ==
{{moved-to|[[Talk:Vanquisher]]}}

== Locked Chests ==
{{moved-to|[[Talk:Lockpick]]}}

== Drop Rate ==
{{moved-to|[[Talk:Game updates/20070419/Drop Rate]]}}

== Presearing ==
{{moved-to|[[../Access]]}}

= Item-related discussions =
== Shing Jea and Istan Greens ==
I'm wondering what will be of the greens in Istan and Shing Jea in hard mode since the bosses will not be such a low level in it. I will try to get around to it and farm Tahkayun Tsi but I might not be able to do it until later so if anyone finds out later, feel free to post it here if I haven't already. [[User:Soultwister|Soultwister]] 21:53, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm trying right now but it is proving difficult, since the Monitors can heal like crazy (Shield of Regen!) and Tahkayun Tsi is level 27!) [[User:Soultwister|Soultwister]] 22:47, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

I was able to get the Deathkeeper of off Yunlai Deathkeeper in Sunqua Vale last night in Hard Mode.  It's stats were exactly the same as the Normal Mode version.
[[User:Cerebus|Cerebus]]

Thanks, thats pretty stupid, fighting a level 27 boss only to get a weapon that does not have any use at all, other then being good for newly made characters. [[User:Soultwister|Soultwister]] 18:37, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:Sounds like your bad luck. I fought [[Hassin Softskin]] in Hard Mode and got a [[Fiery Blade Axe]] for my trouble. [[User:SarielV|SarielV]] 01:49, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
::Confirmed for me as well - while Vanquishing Sunqua Vale, I ended up with a perfectly normal (read:useless) Zinjuu's Lifeforce. [[User:Auntmousie|Auntmousie]] 04:03, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I've killed Hassin dozens of times, I've got his crappy shield a couple times, a variety of junky whites and blues most of the time, 3 golds(a hammer and 2 bows, go figure), an occasional purple, 1 FoW scroll, 1 UW scroll, and 2 lockpicks. Not even 1 elite tome yet, much less any valuable rare skinned items. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 07:59, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

== Lockpicks vs skill tomes contradiction ==

I get why they have lockpicks instead of different keys for different areas.  I'm a big fan of this fact.  However, it would be nice if they followed the same philosophy for skill tombs.  It makes sence that rangers drop ranger skill tombs, that's for sure.  But it seems like it would be nice to follow the philosophy of ''not needing a bounch of different (keys)'' to ''not needing a bounch of different (tomes)''.  Like I said, it makes less sense for a ranger to drop a monk tomes, but it also makes less sence that soul reaping only triggers every 5 seconds or that loot drop varies based on party size (my point here being sometimes GW favors making sense over gameplay, and sometimes they favor gameplay over making sense).  This is really not so much a critique or complaint, more of an observation.  --[[User:Mooseyfate|Mooseyfate]] 13:50, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

:Uhm, it's "Tome" wtf, noone died, what do books have to do with dead people?

:They're trying to encourage hunting parties as opposed to cookie cutter farm teams. The former is more interesting and variable depending on skill, etc. On Jarin Plains, my 3 man team got, in total, 12 golds. gg.
::You sure you had Hard Mode on?  I don't think they dropped less than 80 gold on a kill when I went through it. [[User:SarielV|SarielV]] 01:53, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I think he ment Gold Items as in Rare Items, not 12 gold coins. Thats a lot more then I got with my 55 Monk and I cleared everything on the map except the Necro Mandrgors which used life stealing.

:This is in favor of gameplay, yes, but what's wrong with that?-[[User:Silk Weaker|Silk Weaker]] 13:55, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

::Like Moosey said, it simply an observation. Personally I like the different tome things, simply because a book can only hold so much before it's too heavy to carry. I know, I read a lot. If every tome carried every skill from every profession it would me far too thick. Now split it up into different professions and you get an easier to carry book. Atleast that is my theory on why the different tomes makes sense.[[Image:Horrified.png]][[User:Kilcannon|Kilcannon]] 17:39, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:::About the whole size and weight thing, keep in mind, in GW physics, a full suit of plate armor is both large enough for a nearly 7 foot tall 300 pount warrior to wear and provide a large amount of armor, and small enough for the FULL SUIT to fit in a pouch on his belt. And that same warrior can carry 20 two handed heavy hammers in his back pack, and carry 20 more in bags if he wants to. In addition to all that, he can still manage to carry 100k worth of gold pieces on his person as well. And he can carry all this without even slowing down. And best of all, the same stuff can just as easily be carried by the tiny little 5 foot 100 pound monk girl too... [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 19:34, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::::Skill tomes are an odd sort of thing. In a way, you have to view them as magical items because if they was really just books, you could read them more than once, you could learn all the skills contained in them (eventually) and you could retain them for all of your characters to use. The skill tome is just a new game mechanic for learning skills, and a tome just happened to be the device they wanted to implement it through. It would have worked just as well if was a hypodermic needle with skills you could inject. I don't think too much thought needs to be put into whether it makes sense in real life. -- [[User:Blazeroth|Blazeroth]] 13:51, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::Well, remember Diablo? -[[User:210.3.39.32|210.3.39.32]] 00:26, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Honestly, I didn't understand a word of what he said. Is he trying to say that there should just be "general tomes" (NOT TOMBS wow why does everyone spell it that way, so annoying...) that allow you to unlock ANY profession's skill? If so, I strongly disagree. Lockpicks are universal because of the idea that Hard Mode is really all one area, in a sense. Plus, the keys would have to be different from the normal keys since obviously Hard Mode would have to count as high-end chests, and also because otherwise everyone would be buying Istan keys at 40g a pop and just going into Hard Mode to get loads of amazing weapons. Doubling the amount of keys would really be unreasonable. However, I really don't see why tomes should be universal as well, IMO it really makes more sense that way.

= Misc discussions =
== Monster Pages ==
All monster pages will need to be updated with Hard Mode info.  If I may suggest a method...
*Add a second set of levels below the first set, showing possible levels in hard mode.
*Add a second list of skills under the first set, showing skills by level in hard mode.
My example would be how monsters such as [[Stalking Nephila|this one]] are currently displayed.

A Bot would probably be best suited to the task of creating these new places to enter data on each Monster Page. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 09:23, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::The exemple can be confusing; one may think that in hard mode they only use Quick Shot. Elites (and other additional skills in Hard Mode) should be listed under something like '''Additional skills in Hard Mode''' rather than just '''Hard Mode'''. [[User:Yaki|Yaki]] 15:05, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:There's enough horizontal space that I think hard mode data in the article should be a separate column, instead of taking more vertical space.  -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:25, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::Works for me...  Just make sure somebody does it before everybody starts updating each article the way they think looks best, so it's all uniform. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 09:41, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I'm willing to update pages as needed, so far i've just made a note on [[Suneh Stormbringer]] at the bottom of the page on the skill setting and made a note of the xp bonus given from [[Plant Hunt]].  let me know if its ok or you want it changed.  tyvm  [[User:Ferdoc|Ferdoc]] 11:25, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

==Bug Tag==
There has been a lot of confusion about what you need to do in order to access hard mode on characters that haven't completed a particular chapter. If it's not a bug that you need to log in on a character that has, there should at least be a note mentioning it. [[User:Mercurius Ter Maxim|Mercurius Ter Maxim]] 05:24, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:According to GWW it is. That could mean it really is a bug since we know anet wants to use GWW for documentation. [[User:Argel|Argel]] 10:11, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

I found that also animals count, such as moa birds

==Variation==
Would have been more fun with a little more variation in names and such...like:<br/>
Elder Devourer<br/>
Elite Charr<br/>
Ancient Scarab<br/>
Just some new names to add some variety and a feeling of fighting new monsters :)
([[User:Soulflame|Soulflame]] 06:32, 20 April 2007 (CDT))
:While that would make the game seem more cool... I don't think they're trying to make it seem a totally new game, just a harder, perhaps more realistic version of normal mode. (How can lvl 5 Ascalonian npcs have foughten the Krytan npcs who are so much stronger than them in the 'Guild Wars'.) With the monsters all more powerful, and the same names, it depicts a more realistic version of the game instead of your little elementalist being able to destroy an entire charr legion by themselves. [[User:Alreajk|Alreajk]] 16:47, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

More realistic? Challenging???? Lets see, Ive tried to do jokanur digs mission over two dozen times in hard mode, without success.....same with fort ranik.  Tried diff team builds, players vs hench heroe, everything i could think of....no go.  To me, that is beyond challenging, and has ceased to be fun.  Sorry, I am not enthralled with hard mode!!!!!!  The lower level hard mode missions seem to be too hard to complete with only 4 players......anyone else have this same experience?[[ User: Andraste Athena]] 05:34, June 17, 2007

That's where heroes come in... Shame I don't have NF...

I DO have heroes, and used them.......if you read what I wrote, it says "players vs heroes/hench" meaning, I used teams consisting of all players, players and heroes, and just myself and heroes.......still couldnt complete those missions. I'd be grateful for any tips/feedback which could help me complete these hard mode missions (Jokanur Digs, mainly) Andraste Athena[[User:68.54.131.134|68.54.131.134]] 15:26, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

: Dervishes are pretty much useless in Hard Mode Jokanur Diggings, with exception of [[Avatar of Balthazar]] an [[Heart of Holy Flame]]. However, the undead are not the problem; it's the insects outside. Playing as a dervish myself, I managed to complete the mission using only heroes ('''Melonni''': D/W Avatar of Lyssa with Heart of Holy Flame, Distracting Blow to take down the monks, '''Dunkoro''': M/any Light of Deliverance Hybrid (Check build on the PvXWiki) and '''Razah''' as a [[User:Yaki/Archive:Builds/Rt/any Ritual Lord|Ritual Lord]]) after a few tries. With Shelter + Union + Displacemant there shouldn't be too much trouble. [[User:Yaki|Yaki]] 10:34, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

:: WTF lol I have vanquished most areas in all 3 campains. I have done 99% of all areas with heroes/henchys. Its not completely dependent on the build of your heroes but how you pull and where you flag your henchys that determines if you gona live or die. Hard Mode is based on overall Skill (for the more chalenging sections). I play a sin and i think its one of the weakest possible chars excluding the monk. Dervishes and Eles are the BEST and easiest chars to play in HM. Dervish's best elite imo is Dwayna for its massive self heal and hex removal specially now that you can keep it up 100%.
** Basic HM strategy that works for EVERYTHING is: 1 puller any class (body block or enemy range limit) 1 prot/heal monk (with Shield of Absorption+Blessed Aura) 1 dmg dealer (AoE is best) 1 Interrupter (dazing is best)
Assuming your puller can prevent melee enemies from going to casters (setup) manually cast SoA from monk on puller 100% of time and dazing monks and eles, nuke them to oblivion. 
Exceptions so far only has been Rotscale and mamoon lagoon where specific builds were needed. [[User:Rcollins779x|Rcollins779x]] 12:21, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== Leprechaun ==
User Leprechaun copy/pasted 68 times "Changes to normal mode". Someone wanna reverse that and punish that "funny" user? &mdash; [[User:Abedeus|<font color="gold">'''Abedeus'''</font>]] [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 09:54, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:Done. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:28, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

== All chests give title ==

I checked, and I think that all chests in hard mode give a treasure hunting title point, regardless of area. If anyone wants to check and add this, I'd be grateful Smarty100044@msn.com 14:48, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

:Ripped from redirect page. --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 15:55, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

== The Underworld / FoW ==

According to Gaile: "Hard mode is available in all areas of the game except for Pre-Searing Ascalon.". Anyone checked the Underworld?
:Yes, there are some quite lovely level 32 aatxes there. [[User:Fred The Second|Fred The Second]] 16:15, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::I ran into those myself.  Less then friendly, I must say.  And the +50 Speed Boost is not conductive towards Smite only farming.  On the plus side, +50% attack speed = Spiteful Spirit heaven. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 19:35, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

== Needs to Be Fixed ==

The section on tiems need to be fixed, and since i suck at Wiki HTML, someone do it, please. [[User:Kurzspear|<font color="Red">'''Kurzspear'''</font>]] 18:27, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:the ''<nowiki>[edit] [edit] [edit]</nowiki>'' ? that's because the pictures are all larger then the sections that house them, and it's pushing the edit tags down the page to the first gap in the pictures. known issue, nothing to be done. --[[User:Honorable Sarah|Honorable Sarah]] [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 18:29, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::Aw, that means the article can't look pretty... [[User:Kurzspear|<font color="Red">'''Kurzspear'''</font>]] 18:31, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Fixed, <nowiki>__NOEDITSECTION__</nowiki>... &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]][[User:Blastedt|Blastedt]] 18:32, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::::Nice. I was wondering about that ugliness myself. If I had a cookie, I would give it to you. ^_^ [[User:Gwen Shadowsound|Gwen Shadowsound]] 18:59, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::-eats- &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]][[User:Blastedt|Blastedt]] 19:45, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

::::::*undos*  You only need ONE <nowiki>__NOEDITSECTION__</nowiki>, no need to spam and flood the article with it.  I've removed every single one of them as a punishment!  Now you should suffer through all the [edit] links!!!  (ie, I've fixed it) -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:26, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


== Explorer Title ==
It should be noted on the page somewhere that Hard Mode combines VERY well with explorer titles, as you are already required to clear every enemy from the area, it's no challenge to map it while you're there. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 19:47, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
:Any opinions on this? --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 21:41, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I think the note should go in the [[Vanquisher]] article. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:30, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

== Entering Hard Mode ==

ive allrdy beat hells precipice on my tank, so will i be able to enter had mode on him and my other characters?
:Please read the [[Hard_Mode#Accessibility|Accessibility]] section on the Hard Mode page, it answers your question there. --[[User:Wolfie|Wolfie]] [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] <small>([[User_talk:Wolfie|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Wolfie|contribs]])</small> 21:57, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
::Apparently, you don't need to complete the entire story (unless factions or nightfall) to gain access to hard mode, you need to be level 20 and finish the last mission of the storyline. I hope I said this right.--[[User:GW-Dark Paladin X|Dark Paladin X]] 17:03, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::There is at least something else going on here, because my Defender of Ascalon (read: level 20 before I got to Ascalon City) could not enter Hard Mode at first, even though I have a Protector of Tyria on the same account.  It didn't matter much, because FOB was to fight my way to LA and take a slow boat to Cantha for decent armor.  When I came back, poof! hard mode allowed. [[User:Auntmousie|Auntmousie]] 17:54, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

== suicide farming ==

farming hopping vampires and thought stealer's on hard mode
lvl 20 necro
9 soul reaping
9 death magic
and the skill
animate bone minion
mwahahahahaha

:Yeah, this worked great with rangers dropping down spirits too. Nerfed some time ago though; they no longer give exp or drop items.

== Hard as Hell ==

Just me, or do some of the enemies need to be brought down to make missions possible? The AI have increased Spiking abilites as well. If Anet wants to make Hard Mode "possible" then they need to tone down the level 30 mobs in groups of nine... [[User:Readem|<font color="Black">'''Readem'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Readem|''<font color="Red">talk</font>'']]*[[Special:Contributions/Readem|''<font color="Black">contribs</font>'']])</small> 00:00, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:Maybe you just need to work harder.  :p  I'd be willing to bet if you used a team similar to that used for Balanced DoA Farming, you could fairly easily beat most of the hard mode quests and missions.  Whether or not you can form such a team is not A-Net's problem. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 00:35, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

I worked pretty darn hard, (2 dozen attempts, diff builds, players vs hench/hero) and still could not complete hard mode missions, jokanur digs and fort ranik.  They call for 4 players, so, no , u cant use the balanced DOA team build.....any suggestions ? For hard mode to be FUN, to be, I have to be able to complete the mission. [[Andraste Athena]]

I agree--some areas too hard, unless you have precisely the right team with exactly the correct skill sets, and so on.  I and another spent 7 damn hours clearing Diessa (having started in Yak's to get a 6-member party--just can't imagine doing this with 4-member, so this puts the lie to the claim that hard mode is adjusted to the intended party size) and almost did not make it, thus I say hard mode is much to much a useless grind with little reward, in the long run.  Further, they should ease up on the death penalties a bit, and allow you to reach higher bonus--maybe only 10% death penalty and allow bonus to go to level 12 or even 15, because if your party all hit -60 dp you have to start over -- really just too difficult for averagely good players who might not have access to a full team of humans.  Further, builds that should be good are now completely useless in most areas--for instance the MM (this one really is infuriating).

::Maybe I'm just a wuss, but hard mode is too hard. I just had the "pleasure" of Vanquishing Old Ascalon, with three heroes: Koss, Tahlkora and Melonni. It was easily the most painstaking, grueling, unfun thing I've done in a while. Hovering constantly near death, the Tahl and Mel dropping like flies, we struggled through for three hours, only to have to go back and basically retrace the entire map because we'd missed a few (and believe me, I never realized how big an area Old Ascalon was until I had to do this). At the end, we had to fight a larger-than-normal mob of devourers. If I had died twice more times, all that work would've been down the drain, as it would've if I'd had a power outage or disconnect. Keep in mind this was ''Old Ascalon'', the very first non-tutorial area of the very first game. I could only imagine the hell Hard Mode would be in areas that were actually difficult in the first place. I could imagine it, I say, but I really don't care to. I guess I'm just not 1337 enough. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 00:39, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Hard mode mursaats were owning my party, but the devourers drop like flies.  I'm personally disappointed to see the Res Signet not on most monster's bars... -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:55, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::You are not required to play in hard mode if you find it unfun. And the difficulty scales much slower than in the normal mode. Starter maps = huge difference, endgame maps = little difference. I'm still wiping the floor with margonites in Realm of Torment, Hard Mode, with just heroes and henches to my aid, and solo farming DoA, hard mode. No big change there except for better loot and XP.--[[User:Tmakinen|Tmakinen]] 05:27, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, I mean, why monsters lv 8-9 are lvl 25 in Hard Mode, while monsters 2-3 are 22-23? This makes no sense! They should be lvl 19-20... And yes, they spike better than top 100 guilds - 6 Mantids Necromanters wiped out my team in 3 spells, because they all cast spell on same target... This is FREAKIN' HARD! And I don't feel that I like that. &mdash; [[User:Abedeus|<font color="gold">'''Abedeus'''</font>]] [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 00:46, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

It's not like it's called "Hard Mode" or anything. Sheesh. [[User:Danakin|Danakin]] 01:33, 21 April 2007 (CDT)  -- there is hard and then there is too stupidly hard
:There's a difference between "challenging but rewarding" and "self-inflicted punishment". Admittedly, Old Ascalon might not be the best place to gain an initial impression; it's a huge area, and you've only got 3 other party members. Even so, I can't imagine anyone enjoying the slog through all that. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 01:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:::Lol, we did use a DoA team XD. HB Monk w/ HP and 2 SF nukers (We needed mel) It was kinda ridiculous (Guild group too) O.o. Besides, even in DoA enemies are only 30 and yet its the same for reg mishes. [[User:Readem|<font color="Black">'''Readem'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Readem|''<font color="Red">talk</font>'']]*[[Special:Contributions/Readem|''<font color="Black">contribs</font>'']])</small> 00:48, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::People asked for a challenge in PvE.  Now they have it.  For those of us who like to act insane, we love it. 3 Areas Vanquished already! :) --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 00:49, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::...And all with Heroes. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 00:49, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

The only thing I wish they would change to hard mode is to give us minimum 6 party members when in HM.  It is doable with 4 though, with patient pulling, as most low level mobs are in groups of 1 or 2, not 6-10 like high levels.  [[User:Queen Schmuck|Queen Schmuck]] 01:25, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::i lost [[The Great Northern Wall|The Hard Northern Wall]] twice in a row, it's hard. but i managed to get through with Charge and some luck. hard mode people mostly know what they're doing. the faint of build usually don't apply, so better quality pugs where you can find them. --[[User:Honorable Sarah|Honorable Sarah]] [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:33, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


:::Tip to all: Hard Mode is a ''lot'' easier with a Minion Master. If you can only have four characters, you want as much of an army as you can get. Minion master does that, increasing your defense with body blocking and your offense with fleshies/bombing/jaggeds causing bleeding. I, too, am disappointed by the lack of res sigs. I don't see how vanquishing will be impossible with a good choice of heroes - figure out ways to maximize damage to enemy targets and minimize damage to your allies.

:::As for spiking: They're computer controlled to start casting spells in the same millisecond. Even a relatively weak spell like flare can do a good chunk of damage when you're taking three packets of damage in one millisecond. (Speaking of, the ele boss in The Great Northern Wall was hitting my AL 60 monk for 92 with that spell.)

:::Gaile said in advance that all the hard mode enemies would be level 20+, didn't she? I remember something specific about level 20 Charr in the Flame Temple Corridor or whatever. We should all have been prepared for things of this magnitude - I personally was expecting level 20s in Wall, but I got 22s. Not too far off. I was actually disappointed when I took a peek in Hell's and found that the titans were only level 30 (up from 28). I was expecting 34+, preferably 36. There should be some prestige for beating Hell's in hard. Though I've heard rumors of a level 50 [[Glint]]... Though more likely than not she's closer to level 40.

:::On the flip side, I've been known to use some pretty creative language when trying to get heroes and henchies to coordinate against djinn for Lightbringer farming. Adding a human or two (not too hard to find a person "LFG HM LB FARM") is ''incredibly'' helpful. I generally go three humans, five heroes/henchies. --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 02:00, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

::::The minion master thing seems like a good idea, until you realize that you're fighting stone elementals that don't have corpses and storm riders that have 167 damage backfire spells in pockmark flats. [[User:Xylia|Xylia]] 11:18, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

::::Actually, I'm not sure how to do Snake Dance ~ Lonar's Pass without getting 60% DP even in normal mode, so in that sense I probably can't vanquish it in hard mode...   I'll rather take on Great Northern Wall in hard mode with double number of mobs than doing Snake Dance ~ Lonar's Pass at normal.  d-:  Anyways, is Sorrow's Furnace the only place to find lots of mobs with rezzes? -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:08, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:::::One human: Spiker human, monk, MM, and monk human. One ZB prot, one HB Favor/Heal/Prot split. Henchies should be two warriors, an ele, and a necro for BR. Two humans: Monk (either ZB/Prot or HB split) and tank (W/D Vital Boon/Defy Pain/Endure Pain?) humans. Heroes should be an MM, two spikers, an SS with BR, another tank, and a Support/Spear paragon. Try it, I dare you. --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 02:18, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:::::Oh, and [[Roaring Ether]]s have res sigs, though they have them in normal too. --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 02:19, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

I find it to be absolutely vital to bring a MM with me into Hard Mode, but since the Soul Reaping nerf (haaaaaate it) I have to play MM myself, or the required number of healthy minions just won't be reached. No minions = no explandable tanks = players/heroes/henchies starts dying like flies. However, in higher level areas, since I have to invest such huge amount of energy into just healing myself and my minions, I need (NEED!) a battery-necro with me. This is just plain silly. Until the Soul Reaping nerf is undone, Hard Mode just doesn't appeal to me. [[User:Ichimaru|Ichimaru]], 21 April 2007

:I have found that if you use [[Signet of Lost Souls]], and you place it as the first skill on the skill bar (as heros prioritize their skills from left to right), then I never have energy management issues with my MM. - [[User:Lord Xivor|Lord Xivor]] 14:27, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::Do you have any evidence that heroes prioritise skills from left to right? I call BS on this one, I have never, *ever*, witnessed this behaviour. As far as heroes are able to tell which skills to use in which situation, they do just fine for me, regardless of order. More specifically, they use SoLS just fine, it's on spot 6 or 7 on my heroes. &nbsp;&nbsp;[[Image:Riven-sig.png]]&nbsp;&nbsp; 17:19, 24 April 2007 (CDT)


Well, Hard mode in Gate of Anguish is a joke. When weekend is over and I'm stuffed full of Lb pts (-buuurp-) I'll check out the rest of the game. I'm disappointed! I mean, in some aspects, Hard mode is actually EASIER, as monsters will attack and cast more often making certain builds and skills more useful (essence bond /life bond+ balthazar, Shield of Absorption, SS, etc) [[User:NightAngel|NightAngel]] 10:22, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

I think, for low level areas, its like the took the best real person builds, and put them on the monsters, ive faced spikes in RA that were easier to defend against, its ruining the fun on of the game. no me gusta. i really think they could have made it less like getting fcuked in the ass difficult, and made it more "reasonably challenging, but still fun."

I don't think so, it should be hard as HELL. Please, please remember it is OPTIONAL. I know, some people think getting new titles and such is a holy task demanded by superior powers, but for the normal human beings hard mode content is strictly a matter of choosing to suffer. Yes. Masochism. It's out there. :) [[User:NightAngel|NightAngel]] 12:50, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

I've vanquished Old Ascalon, holy shit it was easy as hell. None of my heroes or me died the entire time... the hard part was finding all the devourers, damn those things are annoying to find. 1 Hammer W/R with a pet and Heket's for adren and Devastating->Fierce->Heavy 1 MM, Jagged Bones, a little offensive death spells to help me kill, 2 monks, 1 WoH with hex removal, 1 Life Sheath/damage reduction with hex removal. Easy vanquisher point. All you need is a good team, it seems easier being a warrior also, since I don't die as much and take 0 damage while SoA is on me. <>[[User:Spark|Spark]] 13:03, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:Night 2:Regent Valley.
[[Image:RegentValleyVanquished.jpg]]

Hell on Earth. Grawl Ulodytes are ridiculous. ONE is handleable with Diversion spam and Distracting Shot, but two together (with two Grawl hammer-murderers) are impossible with one human and three heroes. No amount of coordination or skill choice will allow you to succeed. Pulling is a must, but it's difficult. For this map at least, Olias was much more effective as a curse necro. Enfeebling Blood really helps cut down the damage, and SS is nice with the IAS. To tell the truth, I'm not sure MMing in Hard Mode is a good idea...those poor little minions just can't stand up to the souped up monsters. :( [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 04:46, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
::You just have to beat on them until they both run out of mana at the same time.  It will happen eventually.[[User:Xylia|Xylia]] 11:22, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

::Well, I've tried Realm of Torment with a MM, and without a MM, and I can say with 100% certainty that in my experience, having the MM made it at LEAST twice as easy as not having one. The minions were holding up well enough, and with them all being death nova'ed and in some cases jagged boned, when one died it just meant the nearest souped up monster took a nice chunk of armor ignoring damage and got poisoned, then the minion was instantly replaced by another one. For what it's worth though, I had Razah running a rit minion bomb build rather than the traditional MM though. With Boon of Creation he was able to maintain his full army fairly well, with Spirit's Gift he provided party support with healing and condition removal, with Explosive Growth everytime he raised one he was also spreading damage, and with Death Nova, every time one died it went out dealing damage. Plus with jagged horrors and death nova, he was able to pretty liberally spread around 7 degen. Definitely won't be going in there without a MM of some sort either way. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 07:12, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:::A good way to get past dual ulodytes is to [[Rip Enchantment]] and/or [[Corrupt Enchantment]] to screw their HH then they are a joke. <>[[User:Spark|Spark]] 14:35, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

::::If they removed their insane ability to spike, then I'd be plenty happy. But playing a Monk, I find myself wasting all my E casting PS... ;( [[User:Readem|<font color="Black">'''Readem'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Readem|''<font color="Red">talk</font>'']]*[[Special:Contributions/Readem|''<font color="Black">contribs</font>'']])</small> 14:41, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Make hard mode harder. &mdash; [[User:Skuld|Skuld]] 14:28, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:Exactly, and in hard mode there should be half drops! So instead we get half ectos and half greens! And make Mending req on a Warrior! It reduces bleeding to zero, zero I say! [[User:Readem|<font color="Black">'''Readem'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Readem|''<font color="Red">talk</font>'']]*[[Special:Contributions/Readem|''<font color="Black">contribs</font>'']])</small> 01:01, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

::More mobs should bring rez!  Especially for traditional "end game" areas. -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:01, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

I attempted Hard mode with heroes/henchies in Pongmei Valley with no specific thought into the builds I'm using, I cleared about everything (160 kills) until I got to the last mob of The Afflicted Hakaru and his 3 Afflicted Elementalists, 2 Afflicted Warriors, and 1 Afflicted Ritualist.  Needless to say, I died. Afflicted Ritualist bosses are hard/annoying enough on normal mode with henchmen and a build designed to shut them down, I don't see how that mob is possible with henchmen, they simply die too fast.  [[User:Zaboomafoo|Zaboomafoo]] 23:21, 24 April 2007 (CDT)


I think its not that hard now, if you can reduce a lot of damage from the enemys. 

[[Image:AsukaROF.jpg|400px|Ring of Fire]]

This is while I played today Ring of Fire in Hard Mode, only with Henchies. (Screen is in German) I also captured Incendiary Arrows on the way. And these spiders spike/interrupt a lot ^^ (OK i got kicked later in the Mursaat base, but only because I missed one Patrol Path ^^") [[User:Asuka|Asuka]] 17:35, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

:You're kidding me. The German version calls Scrolls of Berserker's Insight "Scroll Uber of Rage of Berserker"? That's awesome. Uber scrolls ftw! --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 15:51, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
::To me it looks more like "Schriftrolle über den Einblick des Berserkers". ;) [[User:Yaki|Yaki]] 16:08, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Yaki is right. And in german when there is an "über" "uber" is rarely intended. "über" in this case is only some sort of a connecter to the scroll and its name. [[User:Asuka|Asuka]] 00:47, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Work Harder, he says.  Well here is an example.  I have tried the Jokanur Digs mission in hard mode.....at least 2 dozn times, with multiple variations of skills, hench/hero, pugs, guild groups, etc.  No Can DO.  We get a party wipe, every time.  Anyone have some tips to offer? It would be nice if Wiki had a section on quests/missions in hard mode, with tips etc, like they do for normal mode.  I just dont think a mission on noob island, should be impossible to do, HARD MODE OR NOT !!!  - Amber Firestorm
:Lesson 1:  There is no Noob Island in Hard Mode.  Lesson 2: Bring a Protection Monk, a Healer Monk, and two Nukers (one of whom will tank).  You'll do fine. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 11:10, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
::Actually, noob island in hard mode is easier than the rest in hard mode. Which spells disaster if you're having a hard time on noob island. However, consider this... I find that hard mode on noob island is a bit harder than endgame areas in normal mode. 
::Now that I'm done with useless comments, here's something that might be useful. (1) Revise your combat behavior. Sometimes, good pulling and aggroing can make a difference, and if playing with heroes & henchs, make sure you spread yourselves (using flags) when fighting against AoE-spell users.  This drastically reduces the damage you get, hence makes it easier for monks to keep you alive.  (2) If you have a specific problem, like a given boss that wipes you even though the rest of the area was ok, study his attacks and adapt your team build specifically to counter this.  I can think of one rit boss that was using a spike AoE spell that wiped me within seconds, but then I brought Backfire and spread my guys, and it became much easier. I hope this helps. [[User:Alaris|Alaris]] 11:44, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
:::Jokanur Diggings isn't hard in any way if you bring a Ritual Lord. The hard thing is that Melonni is required to start the mission, and I'm playing as a Dervish too. Dervishes are pretty much useless in this mission, excluding the holy damage from Avatar of Balthazar and Heart of Holy Flame. After a few sad tries with different builds for Melonni (including a bonder one) I had her run a Avatar of Lyssa build together with Dunkoro (healer) and Razah. I actually had more trouble gainig Razah. [[User:Yaki|Yaki]] 14:42, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

== Tottaly insane drop in hardmode ==

Just wanted to show this insane drop I got from Sskai in hard mode.

[[image:InsaneDrop.jpg]]

We all know that it is a good run if it drops green, but green + gold + purp + blue ?!

It was just a test run, to see how hard "hardmode" was. And tottal hit on the first try :) [[User:Gcardinal|Gcardinal]] 01:49, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:Nice. Very nice. I got me the best gold I've ''ever'' gotten on my first run - req 13 favor, 19/19 favor, Hale +29, Enchantments +20%. And from ''Ascalon''. I'm not complaining about 1% either way, and my Favor's always at either 13 or 16 anyway. --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 02:00, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

::I've still been getting the same mostly crappy drops I got in normal mode, blah. I think in 3 hours of playing I got 1 gold(with non-max mods, from RoT no less), and a purple or 2, about the same ratio I get when playing through normal. Of the new items, I got 1 paragon tome and 2 lockpicks, no elite tome(the only new drop I really care about), no passage scrolls, nothing else of note. My best drop ever is still my half moon I got from a chest on normal Perdition Rock...max, req 8, 15^50, zealous, +29 HP. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 02:25, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:::Been getting gold/purple drops all night in hard mode on Istan.  I was actually disappointed when I got blue/dye drops.  ;)  That ''is'' a very nice drop you got though GC.  --[[User:Rainith|Rainith]] 02:18, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

::::I guess I should try somewhere else, the RoT really doesn't feel generous tonight. Although I did get Vanquishing Lightbringer so it's not a total loss. And I wish they'd fix the LB track so that rank 6 is Conquering Lightbringer, not Conquering Commander, it throws the whole naming scheme off and makes me not want to go for level 6:-/ Oh well, I can still go for Legendary Spearmarshal at least, that might be good to have anyways when those new Sunspear skills are eventually added... [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 02:25, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:But then there's no reference to Command and Conquer! :D [[User:209.249.182.230|209.249.182.230]] 07:12, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:::::Yeah, NO, this doesn't happen. I've farmed Sskai, Chkkr, Stonereaper, Xuekao and Arius in Hard Mode. Out of about 3-5 runs for EACH boss I got 1 green, TOTAL. Yes, I got a few golds and grapes along the way killing mobs. But based on your drop rate, I should have expected a lot more from my solo farming experience in hard mode so far. -- [[User:Blazeroth|Blazeroth]] 13:01, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

You going solo or with a group?

Insane is right. After spending 90 or so minutes clearing the ruptured heart with a hero/henchie 8 man group this is the loot I took out with me:
[[Image:Rhdrop.jpg]]

That's a LOT of time spent to get a lockpick. I guess more mummy wrappings could be considered a plus. </sarcasm>  --[[User:Diordna|Diordna]] 23:28, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Another example of insane droppage. [[User:Ressmonkey|Ressmonkey]] 21:01, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

[[image:InsaneDrop2.jpg]]

== Minor Edit about tameable pets ==

I've been working away at Vanquisher in Elona for the past few days, and noted that while tameable pets count towards vanquisher for an area (as the article indicated before I edited it) they only do so if you make them hostile, though target, AoE, etc. I haven't tested if you capture a pet on hard mode if it counts towards vanquisher or leaves it incomplete for the area, but I do know that if you leave the tamable pets alone, they DON'T count towards vanquisher. [[User:Of The Wojek|Of The Wojek]] 11:26, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

: I charmed a rat with my koss in mirror of lyss and i also compelted the vanquisher title in that area.--[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] 20:45, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

::Same run? --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 17:11, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

== Monks are invincible ==
Excuse me, but are you mad? I tried to do The Great Northern Wall and it was pretty easy, untill I met monks... 3 Grawls grouped together and they kept spamming skills for 10 energy WITHOUT ENERGY LOSS! How big is their energy regeneration? +7?! It's nearly impossible to kill them! &mdash; [[User:Abedeus|<font color="gold">'''Abedeus'''</font>]] [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 15:29, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:As I remember, PvE enemies cannot "run out" of energy, in the conventional sense.  You can E-Drain them, and Mind Wrack will trigger, but they instantly regain some small portion of their energy.  If they have 5 energy spells, they can spam them indefinitely, which can get to be a tad annoying. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 15:50, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::C'mon, I suck at Guild Wars, and ''I'' managed to beat Great Northern Wall on my first try. The Grawl Ulodytes use Heal Area, so you're in no danger of death as you whack on 'em. Deep Wound them, save up your high damage skills, interrupt a Heal Area and then alpha strike them with everything you have. You can take them down pretty easily.
::(We didn't even bring interrupts and it wasn't that tough.)
::&mdash;[[User:Tanaric|Tanaric]] 16:00, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I was soloing Stoneweaver boss in Altruum Ruins and it was very, very difficult (with a Rit). But after about 5 minutes of pounding away at it, the boss stopped spamming Shield of Regen (at 15 energy), and spammed only Reversal of Fortune. So I assume that while the bosses energy never ran out, it never gained enough to put SoR back up. Just my two cents on this. -- [[User:Blazeroth|Blazeroth]] 13:05, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


Bunching up? Nuke them, this game is full of AoE. &mdash; [[User:Skuld|Skuld]] 16:01, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Also, [[Distracting Shot]] and [[Diversion]] are godly. &ndash;[[User:Ichigo724|Ichigo724]][[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 16:09, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, you try interrupting a 1/8 second HH with ANY ranger interrupts. Good luck. Also, that they have a 12.5 second recharge and a 10 second duration gets damn annoying after a while. IMHO, I shouldn't have to fill half my party with interrupts and shutdown to take out 3 grawl. It would be fine if they had the normal cast time & recharge with buffed atts / elites / high level, but giving everything the "boss recharge" is a little absurd. --[[User:Phydeaux|Phydeaux]] 04:57, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:You could strip enchants, otherwise there's diversion, mark of subversion, shame, blackout, Degen works fine through HH, bleed and poison them if you can't set on fire. You could even go so far as Lingering curse to strip and lower healing. Though ranger interrupting is definitely more difficult there's plenty of other ways to get through HH. [[User:Ezekiel|Ezekiel]] 05:19, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

::You guys don't seem to understand, the problem is NOT Healing Hands. It's the constant, neverending spammage of [[Heal Other]] and [[Heal Area]]. Broad Head Arrow works, if there's ONE Ulodyte, but a group of two Ulodytes and two hammer Grawls cannot be beaten by one human player and three heroes, as my experience in the [[Eastern Frontier]] testifies. Even with [[User:P A R A S I T I C|Parasitic]] helping me, it couldn't be done unless we both went BHA and stuck to different Ulodytes. Even then we got killed eventually. Which by the way, I invite anyone willing to come give me a hand... :P [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 21:31, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

:::You kidding, most of my in-game friends have already beat all the Ascalon missions on Hard Mode. I better go see these UG (UberGrawl) for myself. >.> I can take out a [[Dolyak Master]] (Mark of Protection, Heal Other, Mend Ailment, Remove Hex) and 3-4 [[Summit Giant Herder]] (Battle Rage, Mighty Blow, Counter Blow, Giant Stomp) without much problems. Sure, you have an 8-man instead of a 4-man, but I think it's just as hard/fair a fight. By the way, [[Scourge Healing]] and [[Backfire]] work wonders in Hard Mode. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 21:36, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

::::Umm, he said a group with 1 monk is beatable, a group with TWO monks is not. A group with a dolyak master and 3-4 herders is still only 1 monk so that's not a real good comparison. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 21:39, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::SHE did indeed say that. I tried Backfire, it won't kill them. As I said, the problem is that they're constantly healing each other as well as themselves. ONE is manageable, more than one is not unless you have a person to each one babysitting them, and with just me and three heroes it won't work. Besides, this isn't a mission; I'm trying to Vanquish, which means fighting a LOT of them. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 21:55, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Higher level, constant all-party KD, better elite. I had no Enchant removal, interrupts, or..well..any sort of caster hate. You know, 2 monks, ele, rit (self), three warriors, Claude. Grawl -> you're ready with BHA and other counters. I think it's fair. And hey, two monks? No problem! I took out two Dolyak Masters in Hard Mode, too. Snake Dance...lots of groups of Dolyak + Herder, if you over-aggro you get 6-8 Herders and 2 Dolyaks. Perfectly beatable, might have some casualties of course...Definitely not impossible. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 21:49, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Okay, she, my error. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 21:58, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

:[[deep wound]] is surprisingly helpful. 20% doesn't seem like much, but it adds up quickly. although i do fear [[Willa the Unpleasant]] when i get that far out into hard mode. --[[User:Honorable Sarah|Honorable Sarah]] [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:51, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::It does help. My Koss makes fairly good use of [[Dismember]], but that too is not enough when dealing with more than one healspammer. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 21:53, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

:::[[Wanderlust]], [[Magehunter's Smash]], [[Earthbind]], [[Backbreaker]] all work well. So does having two melee attackers on a healer, [[Wailing Weapon]] on one and [[Warmonger's Weapon]] on another. I'm also fond of [[Dwarven Battle Stance]] and [[Incendiary Arrows]]. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 22:00, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

::::I invite you to come help me then, since you're so confident. :P Remember, a 4 person party. There's no room for two of ANYTHING, and no room for one of a lot of things. It's Tahlkora, Koss, Me (Ranger) and Olias, who I've been switching between MM and a damage-mitigating Curser. And let's be honest, Heroes really do not make very intelligent or timely use of skills. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 22:07, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

::::Okay, a ritualist, 2 hammer warriors, and a ranger. No monks then? Or is the rit supposed to provide all the healing as well? [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 22:15, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::One Hammer Warrior, one Monk, one Communing or Restoration Ritualist, the fourth can be whatever...probably Ranger. That's a nice balanced party. Communing is nice because of all the spirits you can summon...turn the numbers advantage and keep the warrior Grawl under damage. Oh, and /disagree on Hero skill usage...Interrupts are my favorite examples. They do not discriminate of course, but that's the beauty of it. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 22:29, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

:::::Well, I've already Vanquished all of Istan...  Just took 3 SF Eles and a Monk with Prot Spirit + Healing.  Everything died and we didn't. :p --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 22:40, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Yeah, but the discussion was sorta based around teams to kill teams of Grawls and Grawl Uglodytes...none of those in Istan. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 22:45, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Soooo... back up till they stand in a group, then tripple Meteor Shower to SF.  What's the problem? --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 23:03, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::::For starters the fact that Arshay isn't a ele, so getting 3 MS could be a tad difficult. Then you have to keep the grawl monks bunched up, which they don't like to do from my experience. Oh, and while you're trying to spam SF, you have grawl warriors knocking you down for extended periods. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 23:14, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::Meh, just grab Zhed and Acolyte Sousuke, there's two SF. And there's no reason a Ranger can't go R/E with spells, it's been done. :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 22:29, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

[[Image:EasternFrontierVanquished.jpg]]
{{skill bar|Read the Wind|Screaming Shot|Needling Shot|Throw Dirt|Arcane Echo|Diversion|Lightning Reflexes|Prepared Shot}}
Arcane Echoing Diversion, with Prepared to keep the energy going proved effective, but I really owe it all to [[User:P A R A S I T I C|Parasitic]], THE MOST BEAUTIFUL MAN THE EARTH HAS EVER KNOWN. Ironically, once the Grawl were out of the way, the rest of the area was easy. Charr no big deal. [[User:Arshay Duskbrow|Arshay Duskbrow]] 04:05, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

That's certainly an original Build. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 22:29, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Erm, I beat Ring of Fire un-infused and infused myself at the bonus. Hard mode isn't that hard ;) - [[User:Skakid9090|<font color="Black">'''Skakid9090'''</font>]] 19:15, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:RoF doesn't really have enemies that self heal well, and infusion only affects spectral agony (which is not powered up by Hard Mode is it?) not to mention it's an 8 man party area, Defend Denravi is much easier than LDD for the same reasons. (and is equally possible with a good group) -[[User:Ezekiel|Ezekiel]] 22:14, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
::Bah, that's nothing, [[Spectral Agony]] is no real threat. [[Protective Spirit]] and you're all set. I have to /disagree on the Titan missions, LDD isn't that hard at all. Grab a Hero Monk, Ranger, and Warrior...you're all set. Or even drop the War for an Ele, since you've got the [[Adelbern's Guard]]s and the King himself to tank for you. [[Adelbern's Priest]] is an okay prot monk, so...yeah. You're all set, and you essentially have an 8-man party. For Defend Denravi and Defend North Kryta, your only allies are [[Evennia]] (liability) and [[Captain Greywind]] (poor Warrior). Iirc Captain doesn't even have any skills. Besides that, it is a 6-man party, and the Henchmen there aren't high enough level...so you can't have a full party with Heroes. You need to grab humans...PUG it, since getting a good group is rare for those quests, at least in my experience - waiting for hours, no friends have the quest, etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 22:29, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

hardest enemies ive seen thus forth are the blessed griffons. they can keep up conastant spell breaker (i mean literally constant its down for 1 second at most). though that is counterable with anyone with non target spell anti enchants... (i find the best to be well of profane so far)... either way they do that and run up to people with symbol of wrath and BOOM things die... --[[User:Saji-Kun|Saji-Kun]] 07:27, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

:::2 BHA? No, how about 1 BHA + 1 Skull Crack? Or 1 BHA + 1 Bestial Mauling Thumper? Or Skull crack and...
:::Warrior Elites are important in PvP, but here, skullcrack ought to be more useful. I fill them with kds and interrupts anyway. -[[User:218.103.246.60|218.103.246.60]] 01:10, 4 May 2007 (CDT)

==Farming==

Is it just me or will this make many farming builds next to useless that actually fight people?  Trapping builds and similar builds are safe and 55ing may or may not work better with the increased attack speed but with activation and recharge decreased interrupts might pose serious problems.  But for builds like <nowiki>[Build:D/Mo_130hp_Dervish]</nowiki> will be somewhat useless because with lower drop rate in normal its not worth the time and all the other things in hard mode will make most things more difficult if not impossible.--[[User:Cursed Condemner|Cursed Condemner]] 16:33, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:this is a bad thing?  --  [[User:Vanessa|Vanessa]] 20:50, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

:Regular farming isn't anywhere near as useful, especially with the loot scaling, however boss farming is going to be big business if you can do it right.  The most worthwhile things to farm regularly now are the lockpicks, dye, golds, and rare crafting materials.  Farming for gold and merchant fodder isn't as big a deal though. [[User:Cibi|Cibi]] 03:34, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

How is the wurm farm in nightfall ? It was something you can do solo south of "lair of the forgotten" but how is that at hard mode ?, to bad i am just half way on my protector title, i would like to know if that is still possible there, would make one hell of farm.

: Still looking for an answer for this...

:: Honestly, hard mode or not wurms still annihilate pretty much the same as before. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 04:40, 7 May 2007 (CDT)
::: Yay, now to finish those 2 last missions, and i can't find an good party in Gate of madness :(
::::I henched/heroed all the way in the Realm of Torment, and got mastere in both missions there on my first try too d-: (died a lot in explorable areas though, which probably helped preparing me for the missions) -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 08:53, 7 May 2007 (CDT)
:::::Actually, I find gate of madness a hell of a lot easier with henchies than with PUGs. Henchies > PUGs. They at least follow basic commands. --[[User:Wizardboy777|Wizardboy777]] 20:40, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

== Underworld, FOW Hard mode how do you accesses it? ==

when ever i trie to solo UW or FOW it says hard mode has been turned off due to Sir Patch The Great does not meet req. yet im able to do hard mode on 2/3 continets. Do i need all 3 contintents to play UW in hard mode? thx to anyone that answers.--[[User:Patch|Patch]] 15:14, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:::The only HM I'm missing is Prophecies, because I'm too lazy to do the last mish.  So when I tried to check out HM in UW, from Factions, I got the same message.  But I noticed the Aatxes were actually level 33 instead of their normal level.  So it didn't really get turned off. [[User:Amagawd|Amagawd]] 19:08, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Anyone is excused from doing Hell's, no matter what their excuse. Don't feel lazy. XD --[[User:Armond|Armond Warblade]] {{ProfessionIcon|Warrior}}([[User_talk:Armond|talk]]) 00:15, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
::::I bet you mean 32. [[User:Foo|'''Foo''']] 19:15, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::Perhaps, don't remember atm.  Not like it's such a big deal o_o [[User:Amagawd|Amagawd]] 19:25, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
:I don't know.  I do have hard mode for all 3 continents, so I can't test (it does work fine for me, btw) --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 15:15, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

::Have u tried entering hard mode UW on 1 of the continents u have it unlocked for? [[User:Eric368|Eric368]] 15:55, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Its been said before, but that message is a bug. It will always say Hard Mode is disabled and you dont meet requirements, but the Monsters levels DO scale (aatxes are lvl32 for example). - [[User:Former Ruling|Former Ruling]] 20:56, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

:::So is A-net going to fix this? or will we stil be able to get "HM items" even though it is stated that it is disabled?--[[User:Patch|Patch]] 17:22, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

It seems to me NORMAL mode is the way to go if your farming ecto, especially if its via 55/ss (in hard mode, you have to deal with the AI, as well as lvl 26 dying nightmares that take ~10-15 wand hits) <small>&mdash;''The preceding [[GuildWiki:Sign your comments|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User:66.65.34.242|66.65.34.242]] ([[User talk:66.65.34.242|talk]]&nbsp;•&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/66.65.34.242|contribs]]) 18:20, 23 April 2007 (CDT).</small><!--Inserted with Template:Unsigned2-->

:Considering normal mode monster AI has been decreased, perhaps 55 solos might be worthwhile again?  The enemies still flee from AOE, but will do so at lower health than previously.  55/SS didn't become a trend until after the AoE AI upgrade. -[[User:PanSola]] (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:27, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

:: I was referring to the "scatter if there are more than 3 aggroed" update, not the aoe one. Sorry. [[User:66.65.34.242|66.65.34.242]] 17:28, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

== "completed" image ==

This image (the one from the interface that says you've vanquished all 37 foes in the area) isn't really resizing very well for the thumbnail- the text is still kind of readable, but it looks terrible. Would it look better and have the same effect to change it from a "thumb" to a "right"-aligned image? You lose the caption, but the image doesn't get much larger and it loses the terrible compressed look. Is there another option? &mdash;[[User:Aranth|Aranth]] 23:17, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:Thanks!&mdash;[[User:Aranth|Aranth]] 21:31, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

== Sub-20 Henchies ==

I've been clearing the starter island in Elona.  I've noticed that all henchies are level 20 when you enter a zone in HM.  I'm not sure where to put this info on the HM page. --[[User:Serengeti|Serengeti]] 11:49, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

::i would put it under accessibility, that's just me :)--[[User:Patch|Patch]] 16:26, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
:::It's a feature of hard mode in the fact sheet. [[User:Randomtime|Randomtime]] 16:33, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
::::I think they're referring to the fact that henchmen that you never encounter at Level 20 normally (Abasi, Timera) are made level 20. I wonder if their skills change at all. --[[User:Valentein|Valentein]] 23:27, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::I'm not sure about the rest of their skillbars, but unfortunately, testing a few days ago with [[Arcane Mimicry]] indicates that the henchmen exclusive to [[Shing Jea Island]] and [[Istan]] do not have elites. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:42, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::All the Prophecies henchmen get elites in hard mode. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:33, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

== Disconnects ==

I removed the note left by [[User:210.49.185.197]] as I have disconnected and reconnected to a mission in Hard Mode and still recieved the reward for the bonus as well as completion for the mission. Anyone else have any such experiences? --[[image:Hrothgarsig.jpg]] <small>([[User_talk:Hrothgar|talk]])</small> 04:38, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

:The only thing I've experienced so far is that in en explorable area, if some one is disconnected, when reconnecting, the interface is in normal mode, but still playing in hard mode (recieving SS/LB points and got the final reward when clearing a zone).. &mdash; '''[[User:Corsaire|<font color=#477391>Corsaire</font>]]''' [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 04:47, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

::I was disconnected in Hard Mode and everything was still displayed correctly when I reconnected. [[User:BigAstro|BigAstro]] 16:10, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:I was disconnected (3 times!) today while in hard mode with an explorable area, and got the reward when I finished the area.--[[User:Grumpy|Grumpy]] 17:02, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

== Hello ==

My Step bro didnt beat Factions yet and i didn't ethier, why can he enter hard mode in factions but i cant? I can enter Hm in tyria because i beat Proph, but not nf or fac, he beat Nf and Proph, He can access all 3 campaigns, even if he didnt complete factions, but not me. - [[User:Chrisworld|Chrisworld]] 20:19, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

:If any characters on someone's account has beaten it, every character on that account can access hard mode for that campaign. Are you sure he hasn't beaten it on one of the characters? --[[User:Gimmethegepgun|Gimmethegepgun]] 20:22, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

How do you change to Hm in Fort Aspenwood ? 
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw116vt2.jpg[[User:Stive|Stive]] 13:23, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
:Switch it before you zone into the FA outpost, IIRC  &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] [[User_talk:Kyrasantae|'''<font color=#000080>kyrasantae</font>''']]  13:52, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

I have the same problem, my paragon and elementalist who got protector title in prophecies can both acces the hard mode. My warrior on the same account with lv14 can't. Maybe its limited to lv 20 characters since otherwise you would be able to powerlevel in the beginning.

:Yes, it's limited to lvl 20 characters. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 04:30, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

== Drop - now? ==
What's today's drop in Hard Mode? Still 10 golds per run or they really lowered 'em? My best item was Insightful Smiting Staff of Enchanting (not perfect Ench, only 19%) with crappy inscription (20% shorter deep wound), sold for 4k. How are your drops nowadays? &mdash; [[User:Abedeus|<font color="gold">'''Abedeus'''</font>]] [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 13:57, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
:I think it's been lowered, I used to at least get 2-3 golds per run (at least in Gloom).  Now I'm lucky if I get 1 in 5, or so, runs ._. [[User:Amagawd|Amagawd]] 09:52, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

== XP bonus ==

With the upcoming double xp weekend for skill caps, i was wondering: Does the +50% xp bonus apply to elite skill captures in hard mode? if so, you will be getting a whopping 15,000 xp per elite capped, this would be great for any survivor's out there, granted you have the proper preparations and are extra careful to not die (as it is called hard mode for a reason)--[[User:Idiot|Idiot]] 21:47, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

:The XP bonus (like the XP gained from [[scrolls]]) only applies for XP gained from combat. So no über XP trick there ...--[[User:PatRedway|PatRedway]] 03:57, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

== New ctrl message ==

The message now says "This is hard mode!"

Sparta reference anyone?--[[User:Destillat|Destillat]] 23:20, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

:"What are you doing? Why are you kicking me from the party? I'm the tank - I'm a [[Wammo]]! You can't do this!!!"
:"THIS...IS...HARD MODE!" :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 23:24, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Maybe rather something like:

:- This is blasphemy. This is madness! You can't kick me in the middle of a mission!
:- Can't I? .... THIS! IS! [[PUG]]!!! *kick emote*

Now ;p &mdash; [[User:Abedeus|<font color="gold">'''Abedeus'''</font>]] [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 14:42, 4 May 2007 (CDT)


== Basic Macro Economics 101 ==

I've been reading through all the talk on how prices are going to skyrocket because solo farming drops have been nerfed and been slightly amused. Hard mode means increased drops 8 man party means more drops. Greater supply or a surplus lead to lower prices. Like the title says this is simple economics. Just thought I would point it out to stop all the doomsayers of "OMG ECTOS WILL COSTS 15k!!!!" O and if you dont believe me check any trader Sup Vigor has suffered a 33% price drop black dye 25% Ectos 20% Prices are falling across the board. As a result people will try to sell everything they have thus further reducing prices. I'm buying quality greens for a fraction of what they once were. You guys expected massive inflation to the point where things were absurd. Well I regret to inform you all that just the opposite occurred. We are entering essentially what will be a great depression for guild wars.   Before long everything will be next to worthless ;) Great for outfitting heros bad for people who like to make money stockpiling stuff and selling it. [[User:Chukie1188|Chukie1188]] 21:47, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

::Allow me to tell you why you're wrong on 2 points. 
::#1)There are NOT increased drops for 8 man parties. The way it's setup, in a full 8 man party, you get the "standard" loot drops. When you go solo, you STILL get drops as if you were in an larger party. Essentially, even if you go solo you have 4 or 5 "invisible" party members who are taking a portion of your drops. You get less for being in a smaller party, you do NOT get MORE for being in a larger party however.
::#2)Ectos, dyes, and greens are NOT AFFECTED by the farm nerfs, Anet changed it so that they were excluded in a later update. In other words, it's JUST AS EASY to solo farm for them as it was before, in fact, it's even easier since normal mode enemies were dumbed down and don't flee as fast or as often as they did before, and THAT is why prices are dropping, NOT because of "more drops for larger parties".

The more players farm the greens over time, the less they will cost.  Greens are always on a downward trend in price.  The ecto and dye market will always fluctuate.  I predict when EotN comes out, for example, black dye prices will sky rocket, alongside various other rare materials.  [[User:Van Wark|Van Wark]] 12:21, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

Your first point is incorrect. It SHOULD say that you get the same amount of drops whether you are in a full party or going solo, not that you get less when you solo, otherwise you just end up contradicting yourself. Your second point has no evidence, whereas mine does: loot scaling has caused ectos to drop far less frequently in normal mode DUE TO THE UPDATE, easy kills doesn't mean more (good) drops. Your second point contradicts with your first, as well. And, by the way, you are right to say that prices fluctuate due to supply and demand: as I type this up, ectos only cost 5.5k; however, Opinionated responses do not form well structured responses, only evidence does that.

:Err no, my first point was NOT incorrect. You do NOT get the same amount of drops in a group as you do solo. You get more solo, you just do NOT get the same AMOUNT of drops as an 8 player party gets. Just using a very simple example here, in an 8 man party, against an 8 enemy group, each player might get 1 drop(meaning 8 total drops). Killing the same group solo might net you 4 drops, more for you than if you were in a group, but less TOTAL drops. The 8 drops is the "normal" drop, going in a smaller party means less drops, though more for the individual person. Before the drop scaling, an 8 man party would get 8 drops, but a solo person would ALSO get 8 drops, all to himself. Now, an 8 man party gets 8 drops, a 1 man party gets maybe 4. So less drops than before for the soloer, but the same drops for the 8 man group. Thus NO increased drops for an 8 man group, but reduced drops for a soloer. Read more closely next time and you might get the point. As for point 2, Ectos are EXEMPT FROM LOOT SCALING. So no, ecto drops are NOT DOWN, they drop JUST AS OFTEN AS BEFORE. But since enemies die easier, it means faster kills, which means faster runs, which means more drops over time. And as the evidence shows, Ecto prices ARE DOWN. And since Ecto demand has NOT gone down, if supply had gone down, prices would go UP. People are still solo farming, NOT group farming, and ecto prices are DOWN. That is what the evidence shows. [[User:DKS01|DKS01]] 07:20, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

== Armor Penetration on Spells ==

My friend and I will have to do more testing, but I've seen hints that enemy spells have armor penetration, even if it's not listed. For instance, we were doing Sanctum Cay the other night, and he got hit with Incendiary Bonds (I might have the name wrong, it's a hex, lasts for 3 seconds, afterwards all nearby foes are hit for fire damage and are set on fire). The mouse-over on the hex itself in the status section said he would take something like 110 damage, and when it ended, he took roughly 150 damage. Added armor penetration to all spells would explain how casters can dish out so much damage in HM, besides a ridiculous attribute score. Can anyone else help me test this? anything with a hex or something that deals damage after a listed time should work to test. thanks [[User:Avatarian 86|~Avatarian 86]] 18:39, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
:Spell damage is scaled by the caster's level (as opposed to attribute rank for weapons).  --[[User:Fyren|Fyren]] 18:43, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
::Spells that do damage affected by armor, anyway. [[Empathy]] does the same damage if you use it on a level 20 foe or a level 3 foe- the damage listed in the spell description. Also, don't caster weapons fall under the "scaled by level" group too? &mdash;[[User:Aranth|Aranth]] 19:40, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Yes, but most people aren't worried about their wand damage.  --[[User:Fyren|Fyren]] 19:43, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
::::Sorry for going well off-topic, but do non-caster weapons have their damage scaled by level at all, or is it purely based on the rank in their respective attribute? [[User:RossMM|RossMM]] 05:57, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
:::::According to the chart in [[Damage Rating progression]], level provides a "soft cap" for the effects of the weapon's attribute, beyond which diminishing returns take effect. Relative level also affects the [[critical hit]] rate of attacks. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 06:31, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
A warrior with swordsmanship attribute at level 22 (and I know many warrior foes have at least this much) has base damage of weapon increased from 15-22 to 21.2-31.1 (i.e., an increase of about 41%), with a critical hit rate of about 31%, thus they do tremendously more damage.  A dervish weapon changes from 9-41 to 12.7-58.0 and they hit up to three foes!  This aspect of hard mode, along with others, is a bit much.
::::::Thanks for linking me to that. I thought it was something along those lines, but reading Fyren's comment made me wonder whether I'd got it wrong all this time. [[User:RossMM|RossMM]] 18:49, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
::*Resets Indent* <BR> Thanks for clearing that up. Now that I think about it, I do remember seeing something about that on the damage mechanics page, so it totally makes sense. We kinda freaked out when we saw the big gap between damage listed and damage done. [[User:Avatarian 86|~Avatarian 86]] 15:01, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

== May 3, 2007 Update ==
Am I the only one who thinks the new tag "This is Hard Mode!" is a nod to the film ''300''? (This is madness! THIS IS... HARD MODE!) -[[User:Haakon|Haakon]] 05:08, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

:No, you're not, but merely having the same sentence structure in a case as simple as "This is ..." is not sufficient. &mdash;[[User:Tanaric|Tanaric]] 18:38, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

::It is a pretty big internet meme. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:16, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

So, then, Tanaric, have any other suggestions to support you ambiguity statement? Thought not, otherwise you would have stated them.

== Monster Skills ==
Please, for the love of Balthazar, '''''SOMEBODY''''' decide how we should display the different skills used in hard mode, and make it OFFICIAL.  I've seen at least 3 different ways so far, including listing all skills, listing all new skills, and not listing them at all.  As soon as somebody bothers to standerdize it I'll go do the skill research myself if need be.  For goodness sakes...  </endrant> --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 23:41, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
:I second the notion. I think mixing the listing together, even with an annotation, makes it a little confusing.  I've already got some research put together, just haven't gotten to putting it up.  With the potential for multiple formats, I think I'll wait till we can get something standardized.  I propose a borderless table (or thinnest bordered) in the Skills section with Normal skills in the left column and HM skills in the right.  Example below, though it definately could use some clean up (perhaps a standardized width that is wide enough to accomodate the longest skill names.  
:''Tangential: BTW, how is one supposed to annotate Elite skills?  I've seen it noted and not noted.  Not marking Elite skills as such in the text would shorten the width of the table.''
::{| 
! Normal Mode || Hard Mode
|-
| Skill 1 || Skill 1
|-
| Skill 2 || Skill 2
|-
| Skill 3 || Skill 3
|-
| Skill 4 || Skill 4
|-
| Skill 1 || Skill 5 
|-
| Skill 1 || Skill 6 
|-
| Skill 1 || Skill 7 
|}
:[[User:Adeira Tasharo|Adeira Tasharo]] 02:25, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
::There already is a standard format. See [[GuildWiki:Style and formatting/Bestiary]]. [[User:BigAstro|BigAstro]] 13:00, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Fine.  In that case, I will now go out and update/fix everything that does not fit that format.  If anybody wants to stop me, you better do it fast. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 13:37, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
:::ACK! Crap! Should've read that first....Sorry Zerris, will fix my stuff. --[[User:Vortexsam|Vortexsam]] 23:58, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
::::Well, I'm doing them one by one as I said. [http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki?title=Special:Contributions&limit=250&target=Zerris] --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 06:33, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
::::Also, [[User talk:Zerris#Hard Mode Skills|here]]'s a list of species that I've finished. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]] [[user:Zerris|<font color=blue><nowiki><!--Zerris--></nowiki></font>]] 06:34, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

== Hilarious new AI ==

So I was farming [[Sunspear rank|Sunspear]] points around [[Vahlen the Silent]]. When I get to his group, I of course slaughter them all. However, someone managed to resurrect Vahlen, and eventually he was the only one left.<br>
Here's the funny part: After I killed everything around him, Vahlen gets a case of cold feet and ''books'' it off into the distance in a frantic attempt to escape being devoured by my undead wurms. I let him go, however after I finished my run, I went looking for him. After I find and aggro him, instead of attacking, he starts fleeing again. I was amused to say the least. --[[User:Macros|Macros]] 17:22, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

=="Removed Repeat Info"==
That was me. On at a school computer, forgot to log in. The henchmen info was repeated both in the intro paragraph and the "Henchmen" paragraph, almost word for word. [[User:S Penumbra|Spen]] 11:29, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

== Vanquishing Cantha ==

Some areas in Cantha do not need to be vanquished, such as The Divine Path <small>&mdash;''The preceding [[GuildWiki:Sign your comments|unsigned]] comment was added by'' [[User talk:80.43.114.102|80.43.114.102]] ([[Special:Contributions/80.43.114.102|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!--Inserted with Template:Unsigned-->

:Yeah. [[Churrhir Fields]] and [[Command Post]] in Elona don't need to be vanquished either. -- [[user:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:48, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

== Hard Mode strategy guide ==

Now im not the perfect person to create a strategy guide at all, but would it even be possible to create one?--[[User:Patch|Patch]] 17:26, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

:I see a general strategies article for hard mode turning into a mess pretty quickly. If it was formatted well and [[Guide to defeating doppelganger|not just a huge collection of bullet points]], it might work though. [[User:BigAstro|BigAstro]] 18:28, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
::Agreed on the bulliten part, A hard mode guide would be great though, b/c as for me I suck at HM, but il help in anyway possible to get it up, I just dont know what is needed and how to set it up.--[[User:Patch|Patch]] 17:13, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
:::There's one on the official wiki. [[User:Alaris|Alaris]] 08:30, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

== Hurray for Churning Earth ==

Increased enemy speed plus [[Churning Earth|This Skill]] is a really good combination for the ol' Earth Tank farming in HM.

== Compleating campaign for heros mode ==

I'm not sure, but i think you need to just make last mission atleast per campaign to get hard mode unllocked, because i have done 
with my Canthan Monk Tyrias some last mission and got that way Hard mode unlockked. So "compleating campaign may mean just to do last
mission done. -Someone interest-
:Thats correct except both Factions and Nightfall require you do complete the entire primary line. [[User:Rcollins779x|Rcollins779x]] 12:43, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
::It's just based on the last mission, if you skip missions (for example skipping the first few with a non-native character; or avoiding maguuma or one of the luxon/kurzick sides) you can still get to HM by finishing the last mission -[[User:Ezekiel|Ezekiel]] 12:55, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

== Drops? ==
Is it just me, or have the Hard Mode drops been really, really bad since the Dragon Festival event weekend started?  I just vanquished about 125 foes in Dejarin Estate, and the best thing I picked up was a rune of attunement...it's almost like the HM drops were turned off or something.  And it was like that when I did a HM mission last night, too. -- [[User:Peej|Peej]] 22:22, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
:I've gotten multiple max 9 req golds today while Sunspear point farming in The Sulfurous Wastes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:38, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

== Hard mode mission bonuses ==

If you haven't gotten the bonus for a mission, but you do it in hard mode, does that count towards the "protector of [insert land here]" titles? or is hard mode considered separate?
:Fairly sure it doesn't add to protector, Missions and Bonuses in Hard Mode are different and count towards the Guardian title track -[[User:Ezekiel|Ezekiel]] 04:19, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

== Monster levels ==

Guildwiki states that monsters in hard mode are level 21~33, however, there is a level 20 monster in Abaddons mouth.  The seal guards spawned from destroying the ether seals around the bloodstone are level 20. I have a screen shot of thsi, but dont know how to post it, lol, -- [[User:Tera arcane|Tera arcane]] 20:47, 14 August, (GMT)
:Okay, I've corrected it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 17:28, 14 August 2007 (CDT)

== laziness ==
why else wouldn't they put elites on them? it would acually make the lower lvl HM areas hard, the bosses are acually less of a threat then the mobs because of this. w're an ANET fansite not fan-boy site. <small>&mdash;''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' [[User talk:Skakid9090|Skakid9090]] ([[Special:Contributions/Skakid9090|contribs]]).</small> 21:38, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
:You're not even thinking about the ramifications on gameplay. Do you know how much easier it would be to cap elites? That alone is reason enough --[[User:Blue.rellik|Blue.rellik]] 21:40, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
::That would be because there would be no elites to cap...:/ [[User:Readem|<font color="Black">'''Readem'''</font>]] <small>([[User talk:Readem|''<font color="Red">talk</font>'']]*[[Special:Contributions/Readem|''<font color="Black">contribs</font>'']])</small> 21:43, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
{{userbox|#004000|#c0ffc0|[[Image:Ulcerous Lungs.jpg]]|This user likes to complain about [[ArenaNet]], yet won't stop playing [[Guild Wars]]! Maybe he should just go play [[wikipedia:World of Warcraft|WoW]], instead!|info-color=#004000}}{{Clear}}<small>''~'' [[User:Gold Dean|<font color=#DDDD00><u><font color=#FF9900>'''Gold'''</font></u></font>]][[Image:DeanIcon.png]][[User:Gold Dean|<font color=#DDDD00><u><font color=#FF9900>'''Dean'''</font></u></font>]]</small> - 21:45, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
:Good for you, but keep it on topic please. <small>&mdash;''The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by'' [[User talk:Skakid9090|Skakid9090]] ([[Special:Contributions/Skakid9090|contribs]]).</small> 23:34, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
::Well I'm waiting for your reply. The reason why bosses don't get new elites is because it would be FARRRRRRRR too easy to cap elites. And ANet is not lazy, I'll like to see ''YOU'' add new skills for 97.999% of all monsters in the game for HM --[[User:Blue.rellik|Blue.rellik]] 00:06, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

== Vampiric Mods ==

Okay, I was just fighting a mob with my 55, and I noticed that between the attacks they were using, there was also a life stealing.  Sure enough, when they died, one dropped a gold vamp bow.  Anyone else seen this?  Is this just hard mode?  I've never noticed a specific weapon mod effect before like that.
:That has always existed. It's just more noticeable in solo hard mode because hard mode has a higher chance for gold drops and you're the only target. --[[User:Kale Ironfist|Kale Ironfist]] 02:09, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

== Attribute Rank ==
I don't know if its different in earlier parts of the game but the enemies I've been running into have a set attribute rank of 20 because [[Energy Surge]] is doing -10 for 100 damage. Side note, its now possible to get an attribute rank of 21 in PvE. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 15:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

:attrib r21 was always possible with +1/20% items for certain things. And the attrib rank for monsters was already known ^^ --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- <small>[[User_talk:Vipermagi|(s)talkpage]]</small> 15:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
::Reading the article tells me differently. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 15:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

:::About what? Attrib rank 21 or attrib rank20 for monsters? Attrib rank 21 was since Factions and the +1 items (Egg and Lunar fortune, iirc). GoEP/Awaken + those things +1+3 from runes and armor and you got 20. The monster thing was discussed on MANY pages, was added and removed for quite some enemies, with reasoning: "All monsters in HM have attrib r20" --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- <small>[[User_talk:Vipermagi|(s)talkpage]]</small> 15:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


== GW:EN? ==
Anyone know when HM is going to be released for GW:EN?  [[User:LikaiKailla|Likai]] 21:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)LikaiKailla
:No word, but keep your eyes open! [[User:Randomtime|RT]] | [[User talk:Randomtime|Talk]] 20:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
::Gaile said a few weeks from 9/18.  Any moment now... [[User:63.144.32.43|63.144.32.43]] 19:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
::: Open now! YAY! -- [[Image:Elisa Angelstine sig.png|25px]][[User:Elisa Angelstine|Elisa Angelstine]] [[User talk:Elisa Angelstine|(talk)]] 20:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

== Tips on Hard Mode Elona Zone's ==
I think it's something that's really miss here, some tips (builds) to use in what zone. I have vanquished about 25 elonian's area some with ease, some with difficulty, some with GREAT difficulty and some i haven't yet succed. I look for help for these last zones but i could help for others. My request here concerns the desolation area. I am an El and i have tried every build with many, many builds for heroes and various henchies but none for now could challenge the undead group in joko's domain for example, Vow of Silence and chain rez destroy all my attemps. So if some one has vanquished this area in solo (heroes + henchs) post your builds or at least some real tips, please.
:-For all the areas on ISTAN, i have played all along with searing flammes build, i have used a minion master with jagged bones and nova, a classical one, a ZB prot monk (Talkhora) again classical and either another El (searing flammes) or any melee class, often use a Warrior/Monk with signet of removal and succor. When team was more than 4 i always take 2 monk henchies and Devonna and the elem. All these areas were vanquished with ease.
:-For Kourna areas, things are mixed, ease (no change of builds needed, arjok ward, sunward marches, marga coast, gandara, dejarin estate, flood plain of mankelon), difficult (builds needed to be changed to challenge some real though boss or mobs Baddock caverns, Barbarous shore), At this point i have changed my build to mind blast/necrosis/pain inverter to bypass the armor and kill quickly the boss, no real change for heroes/henchies. And one i havent try is Jahai bluffs!
:-For Vabbi areas, things are worst, no easy areas, some bosses are very very hard so i have changed my minion master to a minon master with discord, again to deal damage armor ignoring. Monk boss and Djinns Flammes are a real pain, i have removed talkhora and i add a second El full water to get Ward Against Harm against KHORR  (turai procession), pain inverter kill him!! But you must have the time to cast it^^. Another real pain was for resplendant Makuun, again a Flamme Boss DJINN KHORMAB but he come along with more guys than KHORR only succed by making Resplendent of Badza and rescue active to get some bonus and hecket to get some minions, idem for the real HARD monk boss JOSINQ THE WHISPERER, my build incorporate Ebon Vanguard assassin support, a great spell against caster and i have a ranger/dust ebon with frozen soil to negate the rez of this boss. Dont forget to take frozen soil when going against Roaring Ether!! It helps a lot. Left some areas to do there.
:-For Desolation areas, things are more worst, i have vanquished 2 zones mainly du to the wurms but there is at least one zone i don't imagine how i could do alone, it's Joko's domain. Here i have tried smith builds but vow of silence ruined them, every build i try is no more efficient. Here i need help.
NEWS: Joko's domain has been done! alone!! My solution was to put Margrid and Jin in R/N touch, MinionMaster with frozen soil (to get an army when you haven't one go near a sulfourous zone, send one hero inside (just past the line), raise a minion, raise the heros repeat..), 2 monk hench, Eve, Devonna.
Now i that i have vanquished Elona, i will move towards Cantha. [[User:Kemydes|Kemydes]] 10:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
::Good for you! I'm still struggling with Cantha... Also, I think vanquishing talk should go on the vanquishing page. [[User:Alaris|Alaris]] 15:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

== Complete campaign in Hard Mode ==

I see that completing a campaign (all missions) in normal mode unlocks Hard Mode for any of you lvl 20 characters for that campaign.  Does completing a campaign in Hard Mode grant you anything other than that title?  [[User:Llandale|Oye]] 03:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
:While I can't answer your question (''but think the answer is "no" at this time''), one thing I would like to correct you on; to unlock a character's access to Hard Mode for a campaign, it's completion of the final mission in the campaign that opens access, no completing "all missions" as you say in your note above. For example, if you look at the [[Mission overviews (Nightfall)|Nightfall mission overview]], you'll see there are a number of times where the storyline branches, so would only need to do one of two mission to continue the storyline and reach the last mission. --[[User:Wolfie|Wolfie]] [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] <small>([[User_talk:Wolfie|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Wolfie|contribs]])</small> 04:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

== Is that me or HM in GWEN is really hard? ==

I mean way harder then the other campaigns in hard mode... dungeons are nearly impossible with a hench/hero group unless you take lots of party wide consumables. [[User:Ts healer|Ts healer]] 09:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

:The consumables are made to be used, guess why? Because HM is hard, as the name inclines. And H/H is generally rather annoying on HM --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- <small>[[User_talk:Vipermagi|(s)talkpage]]</small> 09:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
::The game itself is generally harder than regular campaigns, so it comes as no surprise really. That's one good reason I stayed out of GW:EN HM for now, but I do hope that they find a way that good players can play H&H, aside from blowing all your cash on consumables that is. [[User:Alaris|Alaris]] 15:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
:::I haven't done any dungeons on HM with H&H yet but vanquishing can be quite decent if you have a run through first on NM to learn some of the tricky places. -[[User:Ezekiel|Ezekiel]] 10:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

== Attribute ==

Got hit by deathly swarm for 130 =| That's completely off the scale. I was wearing max armor, it was in the Fahranur mission.--[[User:Darksyde Never Again|Darksyde Never Again]] 17:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

:Damage bonus due to Level Diffrence. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- <small>[[User_talk:Vipermagi|(s)talkpage]]</small> 17:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

== Hard Mode is hard....  ==

Well, I stoped Shiro, annihilated the Lich Lord, and destroyed Abbadon. Whats that? Hard mode? sounds cool! *click* okay, enter portal, load..... thers a mob, aaand..... *WHAM* I died. 

tried this over and over and over in various areas with tons of different builds/ party arrangement... nothing. am i just a terrible player or am i missing something....... [[User:Cnk3|Cnk3]] 20:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll tell you what my and my brothers 4 nuker ele and 4 healer monk build all with pets really didnt cut it for hard mode--[[Image:Chris1645.JPG]] 20:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

:4 monks is a bit excessive, that many pets are unneccesary and asking for ur skills to be disabled. With a normal team(usually with MM), and careful pulling(few exceptions) most HM missions are not fustratingly difficult. All the HM stuff i did with just Hero/Hench(15 Proph HM, 11 HF, 8 Proph Vanquish, Though Reed Bog's gaint patrols of Wind Riders were painful). I just wonder how to do Aurora Glade HM solo...[[User:TwilightRhapsody|TwilightRhapsody]] 20:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

started to read the chat on this page (sooooo much of it...) and it seems to easy to everyone.... i MUST be missing something. i cant be that bad of a player....... can I? [[User:Cnk3|Cnk3]] 21:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

:4 monks is just enough me and my bro cleared fow nm with the build i just mentioned.--[[Image:Chris1645.JPG]] 21:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
::Just 4 monks, that's only 1/2 my party. <B>[[User:Randomtime|RT]] </B>| [[User talk:Randomtime|Talk]] 21:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
:::4 monks make them damn hard to kill  :P. For most areas, 2 conventional monks(prot+heal) is enough in a party, patience and pulling is the key, NO LEEROY'ing Leeroy'ing is baaaaaaad[[User:TwilightRhapsody|TwilightRhapsody]] 07:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so if im missing something, wat am i missing? [[User:Cnk3|Cnk3]] 21:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
:IDK <B>[[User:Randomtime|RT]] </B>| [[User talk:Randomtime|Talk]] 21:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
:: *sigh* yeah thats helpfull. sorry for being terse but I'm extremely annoyed at the 'mo. is there some sort of team build on PvX or something that i can look at...? [[User:Cnk3|Cnk3]] 21:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

=Archive?=
This page is 90KB, Archive? <B>[[User:Randomtime|RT]] </B>| [[User talk:Randomtime|Talk]] 21:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
:Prolly a good idea. [[User:Cnk3|Cnk3]] 21:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)