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Talk:The Battle for Lion's Arch

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User experience[edit source]

moved from incorrectly posted in mainspace article

I did this with 3 people (a Curses Nec, a Monk, and a Barrage ranger) and 3 heroes (a Searing Flames elementalist, another Curses Nec, and a restoration Nec/Ritualist). We died once. Both curses necs had SS and Mark of Pain. The Nec/Ritualist had Splinter Weapon. I also carried Blood Ritual to keep the Monk in power. The mobs bunch up on the stairs so we spent our time on the hill overlooking the stairs. The preceding unsigned comment was added by HSJ (contribs) 05:01, July 10, 2010.

This is it?[edit source]

It's an ok mission with some tough fights- tho at a certain point some minions bridged the mob outside the doors and made them wipe LA within half a minute...Apart from that, Anet obviously hasnt learned from any experience in the past when it comes to large scale battles: At least a third of the mission is stop and go / slowmotion at its best.

And what about the great opportunity to turn this whole "War in Kryta" story into a great Prophecies revival? The battle for Lions Arch shouldnt be the end, but the start of the war against the White Mantle: Princess Salma should order a counter offensive and chase the White Mantle thru the Red Desert, The Wilds (all those abandoned missions, outposts and maps noone really bothers with anymore)...we could even fight our way from Beacons Perch down into the Southern Shiverpeaks, follo the Mursaat thru Ice Floe right into their portal at Thunderhead Keep...and where else should and could they be defeated but on their own home turf: The Ring of Fire Isles!!! (not to mention that all this wouldve been perfectly fitting into the story, as it links the Seer and the Bloodstone as well).

But obviously this is just another episode in Disappointment Wars. This. Is. It.

Eh, I think Anet is using their game designers for Guild Wars 2 right now, not creating practically a whole new prophecies....... I actually enjoyed the battle, it was difficult yet still fun. WGreg
I think you missed some stuff at the end, thackeray and langmar are missing and have you seen Evennia? This isn't it. GaiaGaia sig.png 07:41, July 11, 2010 (UTC)

I still can't stand and understand the people who complain about the War. It was a great mini-campaign, with an epic mass confrontation at the end, as well as leaving very obvious openings for more bonus content. (Not to mention it was free like the rest of the game) I guess there's no satisfying the whole fanbase, eh? KazeSmilie v2 Pikmin Yellow.gif 15:41, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with above--except the fact we (who don't always team up with other humans) had to depend on Alesia again, who continues to be the Worst. Henchman. Ever. (Why can't ANET do something about her, like give her some hex/condition removal, make her stay back, or if she is going to go aggro, give her a sword with 25-50 dmg?). Also, note Thackery is gone from the Eye, too, after this battle; it is, indeed not over yet. I do think they should add more content to this game while also pursuing GW II. GW-Susan 14:10, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice if ArenaNet would have tried playing through the quest before pushing it to live. It doesn't take very long to notice that the henchmen are the wrong level, just as in the previous quests in this chain. Quizzical 18:37, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

I Love this quest![edit source]

Dont you? i mean how often do you get huge battles like this in GW Without having to go through the Deep an urgoz. Tyseyh talk 18:17, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

Ummm... not so much. First of all the strategy - lets open the door and let all those mobs in is a bit like the captain of the titanic saying "Coo... lets have a closer look at that iceberg then". The fact that I've spent weeks earning medals and then discover my only chance of getting anything for them is to bring my monk out of storage because I'm not really a group player but hey monks are popular again. So lets all go and re-do the whole shining blade storyline because it's impossible with hero's & henchies??? (level 10 ffs???). Hmmm the ego-bashing of half a dozen 12 year olds shouting "Monk heal!!!" because they don't know any better... now I remember why I changed characters in the first place. Cyberhythm 21:19, July 12, 2010 (UTC)
Well I, for one, enjoyed this quest. I went with my warrior and another warrior with 2 heroes each. We wiped a couple times during the mission but I had a blast being able to let fly with a Scythe and Splinter Weapon. The choke points made it easier to bunch up a lot of mobs with minions and AoE them to death.Jayemji 07:06, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

It's really a fun fight. And despite the L10 Henchies in LA, it's doable alone like I did. Just use Gwen or Norgu with Panic, Mistrust, and possibly Complicate, an AotL MM with Death Nova, a Healer Hero, and Alesia and Orion for hardly noticeable but still minorly useful Heal/Damage support. KazeSmilie v2 Pikmin Yellow.gif 23:37, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip but I only lasted until the jade cloak appeared. AotL was great and certainly more useful than flesh golem for this battle. Livia seemed to be more useful than master of whispers who insisted on running into the mobs whenever possible (even when switched to avoid combat). I equipped Gwen with panic & mistrust, some signets and some healing skills and then had Vekk throw all the fire AoE skills he could at them. Once that group with the jade cloak arrives though we quickly end up back at Salma. I've tried a splinter barrage build, a trapper build and even a spirit spammer build. Also did an infusion run when I realised my new armor wasn't infused but still no joy. Oh well at least I should get a few wintersday in July drops this weekend :). So far I think I've had about 29 confessors orders from the earlier mobs on this. Even tried it in hard mode so Alesia and Orion would be level 20. Cyberhythm 12:40, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Revision[edit source]

I think this particular instance of renamed Heroes is worth noting because Gwen isn't present during the Battle and yet her name is still generalized to Vanguard Mesmer. It's actually relevant to the plot as it's supposed to signify that Gwen stayed behind at Eye of the North to lead the Vanguard in Langmar's absence. KazeSmilie v2 Pikmin Yellow.gif 20:53, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't read this before I posted on AFK's talk about this. I only knew it was notable because Gwen doesn't actually appear here; I hadn't made the connection with Gwen being left in charge at EotN. —Dr Ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 21:07, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe the note could be expanded to explain this? --◄mendel► 22:31, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not in love with, "If Gwen is in the party, her name..." for two reasons: (1) there's a real Gwen (who, we speculate, is busy elsewhere) and (2) the party can have as many as 4 Gwens (why they would want that, I couldn't say). So, the previous language, "the hero's name..." and "if a player adds Gwen" was meant to address that.
That is, there's a clonable, hero Gwen who is distinct from the historically heroic (and unique) Gwen. Can we aim at some compromise that would better reflect this? Thanks  —Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 08:04, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
"If the hero Gwen..." ? The other Gwen can never be in the party, anyway (only an ally), so I thought the distinction was inherent. —Dr Ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 13:46, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
Yes, some think the distinction is inherent, others do not. (The nuance of party vs ally is not at everyone's fingertips, for example). So, I ask again, is there not some compromise? I would like us to clarify that (a) we speak of the hero and (b) there could be multiple Vanguard Mesmers (instead of just the one implied by the current text). (The text need not include the word, "Hero;" on the other hand, I'm not sure I see the rhetorical harm done if it does.) Thanks.  —Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 15:53, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yey, I was useful :3 KazeSmilie v2 Pikmin Yellow.gif 23:43, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

So, what's the trick?[edit source]

I tried once with henchmen/heroes, did all right until after killing the first two bosses, and then got overwhelmed. By a cursory inspection, it looked to me like I was fighting about 20-30 mobs that came nearly simultaneously. With just me, three heroes, and two henchmen that are so severely underleveled as to basically be useless, there's obviously no hope of beating that kind of brute force head-on.

So I tried again, and again, got the first two bosses, and then got overwhelmed. This time I took a screenshot and counted the red names after I had already thinned the group somewhat. I counted fifty red names. That includes some minions and pets, of course, but I'd say it's about 30 real mobs that come, with significant healing and a lot of resurrecting. What is essentially a party of four has no hope against that straight up without some sort of trick.

There are, of course, other places in the game where mobs have that sort of overwhelming numbers. Protect the Learned is one, and the naive way of pulling it will trigger 39 margonites to come at once. That's obviously hopeless. But there are tricks to pulling it so that you never have to fight more than 16 at a time, which is far more manageable. Similarly, the Battle of Turai's Procession normally has three waves of 24 margonites, which is pretty hopeless in itself. That mission likewise has tricks to pulling it, so that you have to fight a group of 16 once, and other than that, likely never more than about a dozen at a time. That's far more manageable. Both of those give you a party size of eight, with level 20 henchmen available, too. 8 on 16 is manageable in ways that 4 on 16 would never be.

But no, here you run into about 4 on 30 if you do the mission in the naive manner of getting in the path of mobs and waiting for them to come. Some people claim to have beaten the mission. Bringing another player could make it perhaps about 6 on 30, but that's still pretty hopeless. So again I ask, what's the trick to it? Neither wiki offers much help here at the moment. Quizzical 22:02, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ummm, the mission didn't seem as hard to me, with all my characters I just joined a pug group in LA, took some hero monk and everything went fine. In case you are having trouble, these things work well in there: a Minion Master with AotL, SoS Spirit Spammer, Imbagon, tank and obviously nukers (Splinter Barrage Ranger might also do). For healing, one Dunkoro with HB was enough for me. If that's still not enough, you might also consider cheating.EM Signature.jpg ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 07:31, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
I did it with a PU, quick and easy, one had 2 heroes, a MM and Vekk as a Savana Heat elementalist, flagged above with the rangers (Who seems to die anyway in even the most protective situations), I as a Dwarven Hamemr warrior (AoE interrupt, tank and fast AoE devastating damage.) Another monk with UA, another ele and a ranger. We used consumables, thought only essence of celerity, and many death penalty removals (Pumpkins etc, many dropped for us, I used summoning stones) And eventually a powerstone of courage. All in all, we wiped only once, when the huge groups of only jade armor, cloaks and bow came (Which is actually more difficult then the two endbosses). I suggest to put much pressure on the monk boss at the last group, others have to nuke with AoE the cloaks and jade armors and keep teh Ele boss as last one. Didn't take more then 15 mins, and it was fun! Althought for a really very hard, seemingly nearly impossible fight, I wouldn't use any cons, summoning stones and DP... Thought I wish it was so even when using them... But I won't complain because the War in Kryta was free, not as the bonus mission pack, and they have done their efforts, so at the end to say: It was fun! The only thing: The most difficult of all was for me Temple of Intolerance with only H/H... The groups seems never to stop... Luckily I was very, very patient... And killed that necro after all. --Jorre22225 09:51, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
I did it with Prog as a War, and I was an Ele. We did it with.. Um.. Basically crap. Hundred Blades/WWA on the War, and I took Splinter Weapon, WaH and Great Dwarf Armor, which I rarely used. We had one (1) Ray of Judgment pseudo-smiter, two Psychic Instability Mesmers, and one Spirit Rit (heal). We only ever had trouble killing the last two spawns; those where anything is useless unless it ignores armor because Jade Cloaks have like 150 armor (which is utterly ridiculous). We wiped, waited until they were in the chokepoint at Salma's door, and threw everything we had at 'em. One PI knocked down most of the Jade for a while, which gave Prog time to charge WWA (whilst under SWeapon almost constantly for a little damage). Prog charged, the Monk cast Ray, I cast SWeapon again, and suddenly they were mostly dead. And then the last wave came, which was surprisingly underwhelming.
Also, same as Jorre; Temple of the Intolerable was worse. Much worse. I would be up for another run of the War in Kryta if it weren't for that stupid quest. --Vipermagi 14:37, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
So basically, no one knows a clean way to beat it with henchmen/heroes? Apparently everyone who has just brings overwhelming force themselves, with other players and lots of PvE-only cheats? Sounds kind of like doing Eternal Grove in hard mode.
I'm not buying the Temple of the Intolerable comparison. That one is quite doable with only henchmen/heroes. The mobs have an annoying tendency to wait long enough for you to think they're not coming, and then come rushing in. But you can just hang back and pull one group at a time and handily kill them with only henchmen/heroes. I don't see a way to do that here.
Part of the problem that I ran into is that groups seem to come in on a timer, and not wait until the previous groups are dead, except that they wait until the previous boss group is dead. If one group isn't killed fast enough, then you end up fighting three or four groups at a time. Once that happens, it's over and you've lost. Maybe having other players around will help with that. The Thunderhead Keep analogy is perhaps apt here, but it's a lot easier to get a given amount of damage with a party of eight than a party of four.
I'm not buying the minions approach, though, unless perhaps they can be very carefully managed. Even if you flag a minion master hero behind the party, the minions will run off ahead and stall a group coming, so that either you have to rush ahead and get no help whatsoever from your allies, or else you have to not engage the first group of a wave until around the time that the second arrives--and you also have no minions at all to help at that point.
Yesterday, I decided this quest was too hard for henchmen/heroes, so I left and did something much easier: three bosses in Slavers' Exile, including Duncan. Quizzical 18:25, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
I and Prog used 1 "PvE cheat"; WWA (GDA can easily be replaced, and the armor bonus didn't stack with my WaH anyways). Triple Chop/Cyclone would probably be more effective at nuking with SWeapon, but you lose HBlades. Evens out. If you can't kill fast enough, it's not a problem with the mission per se. I never felt the groups rushed us, but oh no, we used WWA, this makes it completely invalid commentary. Do note that they come in multiple groups by default; the first wave is like three groups already, and the second wave triggers pop ups near Firstwatch Sergio's flight of stairs.
I didn't compare it to Temple. I just said the Temple was worse (harder), in my opinion. That's quite far from similar. --Vipermagi 18:38, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree doing this with only H/H is very close to impossible since their level and overall stupidness. I found Temple to be much less difficult, yet still challenging and fun. EM Signature.jpg ***EAGLEMUT*** TALK 21:38, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
So after numerous attempts at this using H/H I can say that it is possible. heroes requires (splinter)/barrage ranger, MM (AoTL pref with dwayna's sorrow), Healer (HB healing). have the MM flagged at the end of the choke point between the two hills zinn is on one side and 4 shinning blade rangers on the other(or if you stand there) stay BEHIND the second line of 3 NPCs just in front of the barracade. have your ranger(s) take the hills next to zinn and rain barrage with flat or long bows, the hight should give you additional damage. keep the shining blade rangers alive, keep your healer between the rangers and the MM, if the rangers die the enforces will spawn on that hill, not fun. if you can take any of these roles with your character add an extra ranger or MM, though a sabway SS necro is great too. whatever you run try armor ignoring and or AoE damage if you can. flag the level 10 henchies behind the barracade just behind the MM (I used Orion and Alesia). it took me numerous attempts fighting that last boss with massive DP. key is choke then splinter barrage, if they manage to break through the MM you are pretty dead. possible without consumables and PvE skills but I would bring as many as you have if you want to win. I tried and died a lot was fighting the last boss with 60% DP. if someone has something better please tell. Shadowrelm Huntress.

What did ANet change?[edit source]

(added header to make it easier to edit)

The first char I used, very soon after the quest first became available, was with my Splinter/Barrage Ranger char with the almost useless Alesia (source of Minions) and Claude (source of energy, at least). It was quite hard, but doable (also had a Hero Necro/Rit healer, spirit spammer (SoS) and MM), and except for Moral Boost, I used no consumables or summoning stones. I did have Pain Inverter, though. Then, I am convinced, they somehow made it HARDER(!!) as even with a competent 2nd human and no henchies things never went as well using my other chars. Now, fairly recently, they supposedly made it easier, noting that many could not progress in the story line 'cause of this quest, but I see no evidence whatsoever of this (having gone in a few more times since this 'update'). There are still too many Jade Cloaks (by at least one in each group, I'd say) and other elementalists (churning earth and sandstorm, especially) in the last groups. The Jade Cloaks, with 160 armor, are truly ridiculous for normal mode. However, I made it through with my 9 other chars, but never with ease. If you are going for survivor title, avoid this mission!! At least now, you can bring a full group of heroes instead of being stuck with Worst. Monk. Ever. Alesia (and at a low level, too). I agree with above that Temple of the Intolerable is also very bad (Cloaks again), but it is rather more doable (even with Alesia), if rather time consuming. So, I'd like to know what they (ANET) claim to have done to make it easier? GW-Susan 17:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't know what they claimed, but I'm 100% convinced it's 5x easier now. Previously, I found it interesting/difficult to h/h; now, it's relatively straight-forward (although I love the hordes). Near as I can remember, here's what seems to be different:
  • The delay between successive waves seems longer.
  • Within each wave, the delay between reinforcements is longer.
  • The groups are far less aggressive making their way to the Keep; there was time enough to wipe and attend to my cat (who wanted urgent attention) and the groups still hadn't finished moving up to the fountain.
  • I believe the composition of the waves changed, but I can't cite any specific evidence. It might be that specific builds were nerfed or that the percentage of build X was reduced while build Y was increased.
  • The foes bring fewer total rez skills than previously (Frozen Soil was helpful before; now, it's a wasted slot).
I don't think they changed the allies (builds/AI/composition), but it wouldn't surprise me if the anti-mursaat stuff is more powerful now: I brought a leecher, 4 heroes, and a player toon without infused armor and didn't have noticeably more trouble than other teams.
Overall, what's changed for me is that, for BfLA, I mostly just put together a well-balanced AoE offense/defense, in contrast with most of Salma's mini-missions, where I still have to spend time on positioning, tactics, and use more specific team builds. I wouldn't call this quest easy, but I would put it on my weekly tasks if it were a repeatable mish.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 18:13, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Signet of Sorrow[edit source]

Is Signet of Sorrow worth adding to the Skill Recommendations? Haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to put it on Olias' bar (MM) for a little extra damage. According to the notes, heroes spam this skill very often and obviously there won't be a shortage on corpses during the quest.

I would edit the article myself, but I'm new to this and I don't want to make any mistakes. Besides, most skill recommendations seem to focus on survival and bigger sources of damage, so I'm not sure this is worth mentioning. Surely there are better alternatives but this can probably deal a nice amount of damage. ximun 13:32, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I believe that we should avoid naming specific skills unless it's critical to a mission or quest. There are almost lots of ways to accomplish GW tasks and lots of different combinations of player and hero builds (and, if needed, choices of henchmen). More often, good strategy and tactics wins out over good builds, the definition of which is often in the eyes of the beholder. In Battle, it's more helpful to more people to state that the sheer number of corpses will help power skills that depend on them.  —Tennessee Ernie Ford (TEF) 15:53, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

New Ending of Reward Dialog[edit source]

I completed the battle today (01 April 2012), and the posted dialog with Capt Greywind did not occur. Here is the dialog I heard after Queen Salma said, " ... justice and peace for all Krytans!"

Jorith: Well, I guess that's the end of the White Mantle. I was expecting a little more fight out of them m'self.

Antwyn: Hah? These young'ns call this a final battle? Back in my day, we didn't have these newfangled Asuran magics to protect us from Spectral Agony. We just had to tough it out. Kids these days don't know how good they've got it!

Jorith: I remember the day you had to walk fifteen miles uphill in the Shiverpeaks, then kill a spectral abomination just to get one piece of armor infused. And we liked it that way!

Carden: That's nothing! You wouldn't be sitting here if me and my two buddies hadn't killed the Lich Lord twice while he was on the bloodstone. And we did it without help from any fancy pants heroes.

Antwyn: Have you mud for brains? That was us!

Not sure if this was for an April Fool's joke or not. Separ 18:51, 1 April 2012 (UTC)