Talk: Epinephrine3938

==Welcome back! ==
Nice to see you here again (-:  Has there been new results from pet research yet?  or still in-progress?
-[[User:PanSola|PanSola]] 15:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Is this where I respond?  Good to be back, Christmas was busy, but no, my guild has been hard to round up over the holidays, so no new info really - hoping to get them together soon.  If you can get 4 people together in your guild to do a test run I can probably get 4 together to test the balanced stance stuff; the issue with trying to do it in-guild is that we need to get 8 online, swap 4 to our secondary guild (or happen to have 4 people with  second accounts on) and do a challenge GvG unrated with ourselves - harder to do than it should be.  I recently posted in our guild forums trying to get interest up in doing the test, and had a few offers, so hopefully soon.  The experience research is tough to decipher as well - it looks like about double our rate, but if so, why don't they pass us?  I suspect that they don't gain ANY experience once they hit our level.  People in pre-searing often have their Melandru's Stalker gain a level despite being above their level, so I want to see if that's possible post searing (easily tested with a level 1 ranger + stalker going post and killing some foes) and then I want to test if it gains any experience once I hit the pet's level - I should catch up as the pet will gain less per enemy being a higher level than I am.  Provided I don't take any quest experience the pet should continue to level faster than me, but when I hit the pet's level (as I am bound to eventually) will I suddenly pass it?  If so it shows a strange pet switch in experience.  Interesting stuff.  And how are you doing? --[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 10:44, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

:Hehe coolness.  Well when Ch2 comes out testing stuff should be much easier, if those guild practice features are all implemented (-:  Unfortunately my guild won't be of much service (2-member guild with no hall).  Guild Wars is about to be released in Taiwan (where I'm from), so I'm excited about that, and see of I can ralley up the fans there to do some research (still trying to establish my presence and influence among them first though) d-: -[[User:PanSola|PanSola]] 10:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

::I can't wait for practice areas!  That'll make so much testing a breeze!  Right now to do something simple, like checking if a Power Block disabled attribute can be used for a skill subsequently stolen using inspired hex is a nightmare - it's very hard to get an enemy to Power Block an attribute line (say, domination) and also have a hex from that attribute line nearby to steal (using inspiration, which you can still do - is the new hex that you stole blocked?).  --[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 12:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

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Hi Epinephrine, nice to see you here again! How about adding some basic info about you to your [[User:Epinephrine|user page]], mate (including SoF pimpage)? --{{:User:Tetris L/Sig}} 10:58, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
:I am not good with artistic stuff, so I was figuring I'd leave it for now... but maybe I'll get something in there.  There, finished - how's that look for a basic start?  I just used yours as a template :P --[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 12:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
::Rip-off! Copyright violation! I'll sue you, bastard! ;) --{{:User:Tetris L/Sig}} 11:13, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


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Hey Epinephrine. I'd just thought I'd mention that you've mispelt adrenaline as epinephrine in your username! How embarrasing! :P I'm a pharmacologist, from the UK, so I get (not very) wound up about these things. Damn Americans with your epinephrine/etiology/etc! :P [[User:Shandy|Shandy]] 11:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
:Lol, I've pretty much always read it as epinephrine; here (in Canada) adrenaline is more a common term for it, more particularly in its hormonal role rather than as a neurotransmitter; coming from a neuroscience background I was more exposed to "epinephrine" than "adrenaline", though strangely the systems are referred to as adrenergic... science vocabulary is so involved.  I settled on the name partly because it is easier to shorten, and "Epi" suits me well, given my interest (and imminent involvement in ) epidemiology :)--[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 11:15, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

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Offcourse, I didn't expect anything less then a full biography on your page. Good job amigo.
Your guildie,

[[User:Makkert|Makk.]]

== How to revert ==

Basically, click on the "history" of the article, find the first unvandalised version of the article, and then click on its ''timestamp'' in the history list. This will take you to the unvandalised version. Then click "edit" at the top, and then save with no edits. This will replace the current vandalised copy with the unvandalised historical version. (Admins have a button that does it all in one step, but they are not always around, unfortunately.) HTH. &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Stabber|Stabber]] 05:54, 24 February 2006 (CST)
: Oh, thanks - that'll be handy. Should we then note who vandalised it, or something?  BTW, I notice the vandal is going after your pages now as well as Scourge Healing again.--[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 05:56, 24 February 2006 (CST)
:: Yeah, he's crying for a permanent ban. I'll just back off until Rainith or someone smites him good. Yay internet! &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Stabber|Stabber]] 05:57, 24 February 2006 (CST)
:::To request that someone be banned put <nowiki>{{Ban|reason|[[article]]}}</nowiki>, where reason is the reason to ban them and <nowiki>[[article]]</nowiki> is one of the articles that the person edited.  For example <nowiki>{{Ban|Vandalism|[[Scourge Healing]]}}</nowiki>  --[[User:Rainith|Rainith]] 06:19, 24 February 2006 (CST)

==Black Bear charming==
I added notes to the [[Black Bear]] article based on what you posted in the talk page about charming them in Pre-Sear.  Could you look them over as you are the one who actually did this and may be able to flesh out what I put there?  Thanks, and good work on getting that info in the first place.  --[[User:Rainith|Rainith]] 03:22, 18 March 2006 (CST)
:Looks about right.  In my case the bear didn't repeatedly use the Breaking Charm, it tried once, and took off after the bait player who was still running away from me, but other people have observed the bear sit an repeatedly try to break, so I altered the sentence slightly.--[[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 03:41, 18 March 2006 (CST)
::I wonder -- Can it be done with [[Orion Elek]] as bait? &mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Stabber|Stabber]] 00:21, 21 March 2006 (CST)

== [[Pet Aggro Model]] ==
Hey, man!  Just noticed you are the dude who did the pet guide on Guru.  Awesome job, I use it quite often, very useful.  I started out GW as a beastmaster.  I still like to play that in RA somtimes.  Ppl underestimate the power they have, my BM PvP build got voted unfavoured.  They have huge tactical advantages though.  Not sure how good they work outside of RA, but in there they sure are good.  I wrote a [[Pet Aggro Model]] that describes, to a degree, how the pet aggro works.  I havn't worked on it in a while, but I thought you might want to take a look at it.  Because you can use pet AI to immediatly reach ppl way out of reach of your team, I like them for RA.  The typical RA team that stops your run for a glad point tend to be the slightly organized ones that force standoffs or hold formation.  The pet puts an end to that since you can it can reach a monk or caster without overextension.  Anyway, awesome job.  I also see you are a research scientist?  I'm going to school to be a professor of sociology.  I like research science too.  That is why I really like GW and the wiki, kind of a little like research science, to a degree at least.--[[image:Windjammer Icon1.jpg|12px]]<small>[[User:Windjammer|Windjammer]]</small> 19:54, 9 January 2007 (CST)
:Thanks, glad you like the guide.  Yes, I studied neuroscience, though now I'm in health policy doing research on indicators and determinants of health.  Pet builds are somewhat underappreciated, but in part because the AI is so bad, and the pets are implemented poorly - how can a pet with a base speed 20% higher than a person using a run boost on top of that hit as infrequently as a pet does when pursuing a foe?  It's got some fault where the pet seems to need to stop running to hit, and thus seldom gets attacks on moving foes.  Add that to the fact that it's easy to lure a pet away from the owner, into lava, into traps, wards and so on and you get a pretty poor weapon in a lot of ways.  Yes, there are advantages as well, thankfully.  You study sociology?  I did an undergraduate degree in psychology and took social psych, but that's about as close as I got to sociology - not something I know a lot about.  Ask me about synaptic vesicle membrane proteins or ion channels and I can talk your ear off though :P --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 12:16, 10 January 2007 (CST)

==Sig icon==
I have to ask, is that the chemical structure for Epinephrine?  --[[User:Rainith|Rainith]] 15:36, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Yes, it is!  It's a little hard to make out, but you can see the catechol ring with a side chain (I think the conformation is actually wrong, it shows the two -OH groups pointing away from each other, but really the hyrogen on one hydroxyl group will be attracted to the electron-pairs and more electronegative oxygen of the other hydroxyl group...) --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== <nowiki>[Build:P/W ToF Tank]</nowiki> ==

Thanks for catching that - I only looked at the most recent edit, and hadn't gone through history to see it had previously gone unfavored. --- [[User:Barek|Barek]] <small>([[User talk:Barek|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Barek|contribs]])</small> - 18:00, 10 January 2007 (CST)

==<nowiki>[Build:A/E Shadowflame Assassin]</nowiki>==
I understand the vote, but in testing it works great. if you have not actually tested please reconsider. The energy is tight but the spikes are worth it, i WILL be reconsiddering the attributes to see if something else will work better but the 100 Armor Ignoring is alot more effective than it sounds in RA/CM/AB's. (which is the main area this build is made for)--[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 09:21, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Midnight, I really am trying to be fair here, if you would like I can roll one and test it; I've tried assassins many times though, and though I do like Impale and the signets (why not impale, anyway?  I know it's 5 energy instead of 0, but it's only conditional on having landed your dual attack - if they've cured the poison it still goes off, and it's a faster activation and recharges faster) the attribute points don't do it for me.  Granted, Dagger damage isn't huge, but with 9 Dagger and 6 critical strikes you deal an average damage (including criticals) of 15 per dagger hit versus AL60.  You also miss the extra energy from critical strikes (you would get more at 8 CS).  From this PoV hitting with your 2 attack chain does 45.7 damage, 36 fire damage from the Conjure, Burning, Poison, a Deep Wound and the 100 damage from the signet. So 10 degen (if you keep hitting to keep burning up), 180 damage and a deep wound.
:Using the elite Shadow Prison as a cover for Rodgort is suspect to me; in the areas you mention hex removal is uncommon, and Shadow Prison is a hefty way to cover - I'd be fine with a different Elite frankly.  Siphon Speed is probably as good or better, as it can be used frequently and can help you kite (as you mention) while things recharge - Shadoow Prison doesn't do much that way, and you aren't exactly surprising folks when you lead with Mark of Rodgort, so the teleport isn't a big effect.
:Let's say you go with 12 dagger (9+2+1 for example), 8 (7+1) critical (getting the extra energy per critical hit) and 6+1 shadow - leaving 12 for fire.  Stick spare points in Deadly for Siphon Speed if desired, or add energy management via Black Lotus Strike. You could still use Mark of Rodgort to start the chain, you get the 10 degen from the burn, you do 5 more conjure flame damge per hit, 5 more base damage per hit (from higher dagger mastery), a bit more from the special attacks (not much, another 6 points or so between the 2 attacks) but you also have more health, or take a rune and shift stuff some.  The extra damage pressure is 10 per regular attack (adds up really) plus more frequent dual attacks, you deal about 36 more damage on the spike, and you have your elite free for a nice fire spell - you may laugh, but stick Star Burst or something in for damage; it recharges twice as fast, activates faster and does pretty similar damage to the Signet (91 at this investment); it doesn't ignore armour, but it's not a bad choice really for a follow-up on a spike, and if enemies are grouped up (for example, spirits) you get AoE for a little more energy.  Such a build exerts much more pressure by adding 10 more damage a hit, has a more useable, less conditional after-spike skill (activating faster too), manages energy slightly better and so on. It's a bit different, but it has the same degen, added damage pressure and a decent spike.  Man, I spend too much time justifying myself :P --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 10:01, 12 January 2007 (CST)
::Not justification... discussion... stuff like this i love, it helps consider new things... gimmie a sec to take it all in and decide what to do and what to change, and TYVM for the reply. --[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 10:07, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:::Just so you know a slight bit of error in your math... the 2 attack chain hits 3 times, dealing 7-17+23 on the Black Spider Strike, and ((7-17)+14)+((7-17)+14) - thats 30-40 bor BSS and (21-31) + (21-31) for TF for a total chain of 72-100 not 45. I know this doesnt make all that big a difference, just pointing it out while i read over the rest of this. --[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 10:17, 12 January 2007 (CST)
Question... where do u get +5 added base dagger damage from? 7-17 is the rangs as long as youre above the req, i know there are mods but am having some issues deciphering the damage article. =P --[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 10:25, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Ok - the way it work is:  If you meet the requirementts it uses the listed damage as the [i]base[/i].  But the base is multiplied by the attribute adjustment - for 12 in an attribute the adjustment is 1.0, so you get listed damage at 12 Dagger.  The adjustmennt is 0.7711 at 9 mastery, so in fact you deal 7*0.77 to 17*0.77 damage, or about 5.4-13.1 damage.  You also have a chance of critical striking; this is 13.23% or so at 9 mastery, +6% for your Critical Strikes.  When you take the crtitcals into account, add 20% for customizing and 15% for the inscription it ups the average damage to about 15.  The difference is that while you deal 5.4-13.1 plus a 19% crit rate, at 12 dagger and 8 CS you deal 7-17 with a 25.5% crit rate - big difference. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 10:40, 12 January 2007 (CST)


:I actually like the star burst idea. Imma be testing the changes tonight and i apprecciate the feedback. =) --[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 10:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)
::If i decide to keep Deadly Arts high i will likely adjust stats some and swap Shadow Prison for Siphon Strength (moderate recharge + cripples wars, dervs, and assasins. Also is a cover if needed and increases crits vs the target (tho will have to also adjust for 8 CS for the added crit energy in that case...) its friday, i'll be testing a few things after work =P--[[User:Midnight08|Midnight08]]{{ProfessionIcon|Assassin}} <small>([[User_talk:Midnight08|talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Midnight08|contribs]])</small> 10:33, 12 January 2007 (CST)
::::By the way, I use this build sometimes for fun - people laugh at it until it spikes.  It might even be worth thinking about a way to do this on an assasin frame - I had a req 8 shield to use but I deleted it accidentally, if I had it back it'd be an 11/11/8 spilt probably:

{{attributes | Elementalist | Warrior
  | Axe Mastery | 10
  | Fire Magic | 11 + 1 + 3
  | Tactics | 10
}}
{{skill bar|Eviscerate|Flame Burst|Glyph of Essence|Phoenix|"Watch Yourself!"|Healing Signet|Conjure Flame|Resurrection Signet}}

::::The really neat thing about this setup is that Glyph of Essence actually makes a spell instantaneous - Glyph of Sacrifice turns it into a very fast spell, but still interrupts running and can't be cast when doing other things (it interrupts attacks).  Glyph of Essence however allows you to use a spell like a shout - so you can cast in mid-swing.  This means that once you have adrenaline built, you can activate Clyph of Essence, run up to a softie and spike with Eviscerate and Phoenix [i]at the same time[/i]; in fact, if you time it you can have the damage numbers pop up simultaneously. The 202 damage from a close range phoenix, a deep wound and the axe hit (with +21 from Eviscerate, +21 from Conjure and a decent amount of damage) is one of the biggest spikes I've managed to make, given that it happens literally in under a quarter second  - 360-390 damage in 0.25 seconds this way, I've seen a lot of "wtf" when I use it. The pressure damage is actually really good too; +21 from conjure actually puts you way up there, swinging away at about 33 DPS if they let you - and the AL isn't bad.  With a +5 AL axe, +10 while enchanted armour, +16 from a shield and the near constant Watch Yourself you have 111 AL - and since you deal fire damage you actually hit a warrior for more than he hits you (he has 80+16 probably, while you have 111, possibly more if you take a + vs slashing mod on your shield).  I'd post it, but people are narrow-minded, and they wouldn't catch the fact that delivering 360 damage in a heartbeat is actually pretty lethal, and instead would comment about Elementalists using axes. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 10:34, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Reverse the professions and use executioner's strike, more dmg and faster ^^ I love that build &mdash; [[User:Skuld|Skuld]] 10:39, 12 January 2007 (CST)
::Hehe, trust you to suggest the opposite :P  Why reverse them?  The bonus on the spike from increasing fire damage seems to be bigger than the bonus from axe.  I'll admit though, that I had to add self defense measures like Watch Yourself that a warrior wouldn't be as concerned about.  You are thinking of 14+ Axe, 12 Fire?  I first ran this at 12 Axe, 16 Fire, and while the spike was awesome it was just too vulnerable without a good self heal and Watch Yourself, and the shiled was better than having a focus. I suppose Executioner's in place of Flame Burst would be a feasible swap. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 10:44, 12 January 2007 (CST)

==Lol==

2.85 kids? I wouldn't want to be the last 0.85. >< --[[User:Ufelder|Ufelder]] 13:22, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Hehe, don't worry, it'll be 3.0 in about 6 weeks :P --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 13:23, 12 January 2007 (CST)
Not long now.  I noticed the increase to 2.925 kids.  Get your sleep while you can!--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 16:01, 29 January 2007 (CST)

I worked out a deal with my latest whereby I get the baby from 8P->2A, while the rest of the family sleeps. It turns out that this is a great time to play GW, with the baby sleeping in a sling around my shoulder. Since the latest was born, my GW time has went up significantly (though I can't pug because of the interrupts).  GL, HF... (It helps that I make my own hours working of course.) -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]][[User:Oblio|Oblio]] <small>([[User talk:Oblio|talk]]) </small> 16:25, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Thanks for the good wishes :) I'm not too worried about it, it's my 3rd after all, and my son is only 16 months old, so I've already been through one GW-birth, and it didn't hit my playtime too hard, though I simply don't get to GvG as much since I need to be able to get up and soothe a baby (which is deleterious to my flag-handling).  Hopefully this one will sleep as well as the last one did :) --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 16:30, 29 January 2007 (CST)

==Kids version 3.0==
Congratulations!--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 13:20, 23 February 2007 (CST)
:Thanks, it's very exciting :)--[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 16:58, 23 February 2007 (CST)

== Restoration Ritualist ==
I had a thought.  What if rather than making separate builds and everything, we tried to compile Ritualist restoration builds and create something like a guide.  Like use yours or mine or some version of them and then build off of it.  Different skills for different situations, alternative elites (Attuned, Preservation, etc) and then worked from there.  What do you think of that?  [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 22:02, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:Just to explain a little further, unlike monk healers, from what I have seen on the wiki, Restoration don't differ nearly as much.  They use three elites for the most part, Attuned, Preservation, and Remedy and they use many similar skills.  Of course, N/Rts are very common as well, but we could even include a note about that.  Essentially, what I mean is we could have three core builds, one for each elite, and then have a variant system.  That way, everyone is happy, and we have a solid Restoration Ritualist page that can be expanded rather than similar builds floating around all using similar elites that differ only in a few skills.  I think it makes sense, we could look over old builds, favored and unfavored, as well as our own, and just create one page that covered it all.  That also decreases the clutter on the wiki and makes sure that everyones ideas (assuming they are plausible) get heard.  How about that?  [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 22:08, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Excuse me for juming in here but for an example of something just like that already done for another profession see the <nowiki>[Build:R/any General Interrupter]</nowiki>.  :)  I'm 50/50 as far as my skills with a Ritualist but I love the idea of a general build for roles of a profession.  You can then add a comment and link to it in the [[Effective ritualist guide]] under the "Types of Ritualist" subsection as I did for the General Interrupter on the [[Effective ranger guide]].  Good luck on this as I support this 100%.  It makes the Gwiki much more encyclopedic this way by outlining the typical methods used and helps many with basic/common build patterns rather than being limiting to very unique items/skills/uses etc..--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 10:32, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::Alright, sometime this weekend hopefully, I will take a few models of Ritualist Healers, probably a few different elites (I am thinking Preservation, Attuned was Songkai, and Weapon of Remedy) and combining them into one page about Ritualist Restoration Healers (That aren't Spirit Spammers obviously).  [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 00:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::::Sounds fine by me.  Work is actually making me work (gasp!), so I have less time at the moment. ;)
:::::Just thought you might be interested, I changed my Weapon of Remedy Restorer a little so you might take another look.  [[User:Defiant Elements|Defiant Elements]] 17:29, 30 January 2007 (CST)

== Favored trapping build ==

On <nowiki>[Build talk:R/any Trap Master]</nowiki>, were you asking about a PvE or PvP trapping build? <nowiki>[Build:R/any Smoke Trapper]</nowiki> is a favored PvP one, but I'm unaware of any PvE ones (especially any Spike Trap ones). -[[User:Auron of Neon|Auron]] [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]]  19:36, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Pet Criticals ==
And you would not had to take all that trouble if criticals where just simply shown with another color, XDDD. [[User:Mithran|Mithran]] 15:34, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

== pets & chants ==

Incase you didn't know already, the recent chant-npc change has made it so pets aren't affected by chants. No more brutal mauling fun :( &mdash; [[User:Skuld|Skuld]] 18:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

== Mantra of Recovery ==

On the notes you said:
Despite the skill description saying it increases the recharge speed, it actually reduces the recharge time by 50%.
But I think the description saids it recharges 50% faster.[[User:Ron Ng|Ron Ng]] 07:12, 30 July 2007 (CDT)

== DPS and Pets ==

I can't think that far ahead in terms of calculating DPS for multiple sources, so I was wondering if you already tested something: Assuming the strongest build possible ([[Enraged Lunge]], [[Glass Arrows]] I think), which has the higher DPS: a Beastmaster or a pure Marksman? Or rather, in comparison to other build types and professions, where do animal companions stand in terms of damage? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 20:24, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
:I know this is a question for the all pet knowing Epinephrine but I must ask, are you regarding single targets only?  I would assume so with the mention of Glass Arrows and not Barrage or the like.  As I am a Beast Master myself I'm not familiar with the single target potential DPS of a bow ranger and it gets further convoluted if you are talking about PvE or PvP (as skills like [[Triple Shot]] can indeed add significant DPS along with Alliance or Sunspear ranks as appropriate).  So to sum up, PvP or PvE? and Single target only? --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 05:46, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
::Hehe, thanks Vallen.  Vallen knows pretty much all this stuff too - I actually still have a link to his research on bow aftercast times and such.  As for DPS, I don't think a pure BM build will ever match a BM plus weapon; the "pure BM" builds that don't bother with a weapon are simply throwing free damage away - you may as well be pelting someone with something.  As for the "best DPS" that's a tough question on its own, since I don't think there's any agreement about what that entails - especially with conditional damage and such coming in; Needling Shot is very fast after 50% health, but how does one factor that in for a DPS challenge?  I'll TRY to do a comparison here, but I'm sure it won't be 100% accurate.
::Assuming you want single target DPS, against base 60 AL with infinite health (no triggering <50% effects), taken over some period like a minute, operating without draining your energy (maintainable) or using a fixed amount of energy over this time (start at 25, finish with 0 or more after a minute, never dip into negative energy as that's not possible), allow one superior rune and minors otherwise, one could calculate it for a few builds.  For a bow build I'd assume that you want a perma-IAS if possible (Flail can work here), Glass Arrows, high Marksmanship, possibly some attack skills (Zojun's Shot and Point Blank Shot both benefit from high Expertise, as does the Glass Arrows), Favourable Winds?  Just starting there you get your attack speed to ~1.33 seconds per arrow, making for 4 arrows per 5.33 seconds, nearly maintaining the Flail, we'll call it maintained, using no energy (yay!); Favourable Winds can be set up prior to starting (we'll be lenient) and thus it can last the minute at no energy cost.  Glass Arrows lasts 37 seconds at 16 Expertise; we'll try 12+1+3 Expertise and 12+1 Marksmanship?  As such we spend 2 energy for Glass arrows, twice - once at the start, once about halfway through - that's 4 energy.  Point Blank Shot adds 42 damage for 2 energy, we'll say every 3rd shot, as does Zojun's Shot.  That would add up to 4 energy per 4 seconds, just barely maintained - one could thus add a bit of extra damage somehow if desired.  Just based on this, one has 56 seconds in which to shoot at 1.33 seconds per arrow - this is 42 shots.  In that time there are 14 Zojun's and 14 Point Blank shots.  The 42 shots add +252 FW damage, we'll assume +210 Vampiric, +882 Glass Arrows damage, 1176 Point Blank and Zojun's Shot damage, and 42 arrow hits at 13 Marksmanship, for 1496 base damage - a total of 4016 damage over 60 seconds, or ~67 DPS.  Maybe you can get higher with kindle+conjure+quickshot or something.
::For a pet, it'll be about maximizing damage as well.  I'd probably go with 8+1 Expertise, 12 Spear Mastery and 10+1+3 Beast Mastery.  The 12 Spear Mastery provides a nice high base damage as well as a source of energy to fuel pet attacks - you are best off with a zealous weapon I suspect and simply spamming away attacks, using only adrenaline spear attacks so that your energy is converted to pet attack damage.  We'll probably be using Feral Aggression for the pet, it can be kept active 19/20 seconds (nearly full time) and costs us 30 energy to activate three times.  We'll use a Zealous Spear and Heket's Rampage - the rampage adds 33% attack speed for 3 energy every 11 seconds, we need to activate it 6 times to get IAS for the duration, so that's 18 more energy spent.  With a zealous spear we only have 2 pips of regen, so we have our initial 25 energy and 40 from regeneration, but the 33% IAS and spear will generate an additional 60 energy to spend (1 per second!) - you'll note that in fact the Heket's Rampage has paid for itself - it generates about 3 additional attacks per 11 seconds, making up the 3 energy to pay for it, thus free damage and another BM skill always recharging.  We can't afford to use attack skills much, as they'll cancel our stance, but we can get away with using an attack skill every 10 seconds, at which point we can immediately re-apply our Heket's Rampage (sneaky!).  I'll select Blazing Spear, a 7 adrenaline attack skill with pretty decent damage bonus, and we'll use this every 10 seconds, getting it 6 times.  Charm Animal and Comfort Animal are pretty much required, even though we won't need comfort technically for the exercise (it would be unrealistic not to have it), and Enraged Lunge will be wanted for damage.  Assuming we use Enraged Lunge a dozen times (every 5 seconds) that's another 36 energy used; we've got a total of 125 energy to spend, and we've used 30+18+36=84, leaving us 41 energy - enough to use another 5 cost attack about a dozen times, and 5 energy left over.  Let's take Call of Protection, as it'll last the minute on 3 energy, and we'll grab Predator's Pounce, which we'll use before Enraged each time.  This way Enraged always has 4 skills charging, and we get a dozen Predator's Pounces too.  Our damage is +960 from Enraged Lunge, +396 from Predator's Pounce, +400 bonus damage from Feral Aggression, +126 from Blazing Spear and 18 seconds of burning for +252, as well as 60 base spear attacks at 12 Spear (1954 damage) and 42 base pet attacks at 14 BM (We'll use a Dire pet, for 30.1 damage pet hit and 1264 damage).  That's a total of 5352 damage in 60 seconds, or ~89 DPS.  

::Ok, I'll admit the bow build had some room for more energy expenditure, and that the spear/pet combo is pushing the energy pretty tight (I'm assuming that since the attack skills are pretty regularly spaced that we won't exceed our limits, but we might find it a bit too tight and lose an attack or two at some point), but I think that it's not a bad illustration.  You'll note how *much* of the damage comes from firing away with a spear, using *a single attack skill* 6 times - the pet itself is doing less than 60% of the damage, even though it's eating nearly all the energy and using the most efficient skills and most damaging elite.  Pure BM builds suck, BM plus a decent set of buffs or a good weapon = alright.  As well, we have 8 skill slots for the BM and not for the archer, clearly leaving room for actual utility.  Is a pet underpowered?  Certainly - you NEED to combine it with a weapon to get to the level of other weapons, but I suspect you can exceed the performance of nearly any weapon alone by using a weapon and pet, at the cost of flexibility, skill slots and survival.  --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 09:41, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Great Zeus' beard!  That was quite the post.  I'll have to add that going with a pure BM build (as I often do) typically has different benefits though and should be taken into consideration when comparing the two hugely different things that are DPS for a pet build and a non-pet build.  Some skills for the pets make it worth while - like Otyugh's Cry will allow damage to continue to flow regardless of blocking which a dummy won't do but a player or NPC might.  Skills like [[Feral Aggression]] add to a pets DPS rate as well as skill usage (allowing more frequent spamming since it's on the next attack they effect) but not the user.  I still use a bow and have enough ranks in it to do normal damage but I like the pet to be the damage dealer. [[Enraged Lunge]], [[Predator's Pounce]], [[Poisonous Bite]], [[Feral Aggression]], a zealous bow/spear mod can add up and be enhanced further with [[Run as One]] to give you both a constant speed boost or other abilities.  Of course this kind of build will drain your energy fairly fast but also does a good amount of DPS though closer to a spike as it's in a shorter time you would use it.  The drawbacks are typical though as you are putting all your eggs in one basket.  Not that I'm disputing anything that was said but comparing a pet build to a non-pet build to a hybrid build actually makes for many different options and DPS may be hindered differently depending on the target as well.  Not to mention that I missed Feral Aggression was nerfed a bit recently.  :p on that. Oh, and gj Epinephrine.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 10:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Heh, yeah, there can be advantages to going pure BM I suppose, like possibly staying out of aggro.  I'm really fond of the spear for assisting pet damage, it has about the same DPS as a sword/axe, it attacks faster than a bow, making for more energy from a zealous weapon and doesn't need any buff to add a fair bit of damage.  Just the zealous spear at 12 Spear mastery with no IAS is adding over 21 DPS and generating an extra pip of energy; a Short Bow at 12 Marksmanship with Read the Wind generates almost 20 DPS, so you need an extra skill slot just to appraoch the damage - and it only adds a half pip of energy instead of a full pip.  A hammer is nice too, but requires getting into melee, which you may not want to do.  One skill I'd like to see buffed is Strike as One - currently it deals a maximum of +100 damage for 5 energy, not too bad, but with Enraged Lunge dealing nearly that much and allowing it twice as often it simply loses out.  It needs a few major fixes: 1) As damage over time instead of damage all at once, it should be more efficient by a significant margin.  2) In order to be useful it should allow you to approach the DPS offered by EL, I think being at half the DPS is unacceptable since that's all it does, and 3) the counter needs to be fixed so that it resets the number of strikes - pets often don't manage to get 5 attacks in in the 10 seconds, so when it is reactivated and it doesn't rest their attacks they lose multiple uses, making it much less effective (for example, if my pet attacked 4 times and I reset it at 10 seconds, my pet now only has 1 attack left with the bonus.  This will often essentially halve the pet's bonus damage, since the pet will seldom manage 5 hits before re-activation.
:::::Yep, but then look how long before Otyugh's Cry was fixed?  Call of Protection still says animal companion'''s''' as well as other skills.  May be a while (if ever) that they look at Strike as One.  But then again, who knows? --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 14:42, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Yow, that was probably more info than I'll ever need for such a seemingly simple question. I am glad I asked the right person :) Thanks a bunch, it finally settles for me that nagging doubt when I'm playing Beastmaster builds, "It seems like for all the effort I'm putting in, the increase in damage isn't that noticeable." A Glass Arrows spamming build requires about 0 coordination or intelligence; correct and exact timing for Heket's, Enraged, Predator's, watching buffs maintained...well, that takes a lot more effort for the casual player.

And the funny thing is, I was just about to ask you your opinion of SaO too :P [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] ([[User_talk:Entropy|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/Entropy|C]]) 00:23, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
:Hehe.  At least you know pet builds are viable in certain situations but require a lot of coordination and effort to pull off correctly.  But when you do - it's very satisfying (especially in PvP where pure pet builds are shunned). --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 19:55, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
::Yeah, I apologise for the "pure BM builds suck" line - it should probably read "I hate that ANet has designed the ranger so that BM builds that opt not to use a weapon are at a disadvantage in terms of DPS, and continue to add passive pet buffs rather than adress the pet attack skills properly".  I have yet to find a build I enjoy playing as a pure BM.  It's really disturbing as well to see how much of the damage even an Enraged Lunge build gets from the weapon - 40% of the damage from chucking a spear and a single attack skill seems absurd.  Pet attacks should be buffed as well, since base pet damage is so low - they can't bump the damage bonuses too high, but perhaps lowering the cost/decreasing recharge would do it.

An error in your DPS model there Epinephrine that I missed upon first reading.  Pet attacks will cancel out Heket's Rampage. :( --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]] [[User:Vallen Frostweaver|''<small>Vallen Frostweaver</small>'']] 10:48, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't even realise that, but it makes sense. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ [[User:Epinephrine|Epinephrine]] 21:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:You have the same ideas about pets, spears, and dps for a ranger that I do! - Anon

== You, sir, are.. ==

My hero. Seriously. Keep rocking.